"HANDBALL"

[Grace T.]

I've heard different refs I greatly respect have completely opposite opinions on this one. Don't worry, they are in the process of changing the rules for handling in 2020. (or maybe worry...)

Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\/-^ And there's no offense if the ball touches a hand of another player who is near? Woo boy!

In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20

 

[Grace T.]

Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\/-^ And there's no offense if the ball touches a hand of another player who is near? Woo boy!

In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20

p.s. most non-keepers 14 and under are going to extend their arm when falling. They just do...it's instinct....is that "unnaturally bigger?"

 

[watfly]

Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\/-^ And there's no offense if the ball touches a hand of another player who is near? Woo boy!

In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20

Interesting, well first off I give credit to IFAB for trying to incorporate most of the non-deliberate interpretations that are being taught to refs (i.e. now disclosing them to the general public). I can appreciate that they are trying to expand the definition to include a "fairness" principle. I still don't care for the term "unnatural", maybe semantics but I prefer a term like "unusually extended" or even "unnaturally extended". I'm a little concerned for how "the hands above the shoulders" and the "taking a risk" will impact the defenders ability to head and slide tackle inside the box. I do like some of the definitions of what is "not usually a free kick". Whether I like the laws or not, at least they have given full disclosure as to what the rules are, many of which have already been in practice for some time. To me they seem more clarifying, although they certainly still leave a lot of room for subjectivity.

 

[BSMet94]

Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\/-^ And there's no offense if the ball touches a hand of another player who is near? Woo boy!

In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20

You imply that AYSO referees, because they are volunteers, are not well trained. You should look into that before making such statements.

 

[Eagle33]

You imply that AYSO referees, because they are volunteers, are not well trained. You should look into that before making such statements.

Trained well or not in AYSO doesn't mean anything unless you doing competitive games for more than few years.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

You imply that AYSO referees, because they are volunteers, are not well trained. You should look into that before making such statements.

Many are not. They can now take an online course (which is great, and all coaches and parents should take it), and then a 4-6 hour in-person course to referee U10. The purpose of the Regional Referee course is to make sure they understand the basics and can get the game going. Handling's details are not covered, and not expected to be called correctly.

If a volunteer in AYSO wants to referee higher ages, they are supposed to then take the Intermediate course. Fouls are really talked about a lot more in that course.

 

[Surfref]

Trained well or not in AYSO doesn't mean anything unless you doing competitive games for more than few years.

I know several really good AYSO referees that do not work club games. They only work AYSO and high school. They could easily work club games but most have told me they don’t want to deal with the crazy parents and out of control sidelines.

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

I know several really good AYSO referees that do not work club games. They only work AYSO and high school. They could easily work club games but most have told me they don’t want to deal with the crazy parents and out of control sidelines.

Agreed, although they likely took at least the Intermediate course, if not the Advanced or National. Those courses really help AYSO referees become better, especially with the required assessments. Whether the assessors are good or not, it is feedback from a neutral party, which is hard to come by.

 

[Grace T.]

You imply that AYSO referees, because they are volunteers, are not well trained. You should look into that before making such statements.

I've been through both the AYSO and club ref training. As I stated before, the initial AYSO training is just better than the club training and AYSO does a lot more to support people as they go along. That said, AYSO forces the parents on teams to volunteer to referee. As a result, as a new CR my biggest struggle was bringing along ARs that hadn't read the material and didn't really care because they were just doing it because they had to. In fact, I went out of my way to try and work with youth volunteers because 1) I really like working with the kids, and 2) unlike the parents, they knew their stuff, even if they needed some encouragement to make the call. Some volunteers just didn't care, wanted to do the bare minimum out there and the bare minimum of games, and unlike club refs didn't have a monetary incentive to do the work.

Both things can simultaneously be true: 1) AYSO has a lot of good experienced refs, particularly those with a higher than intermediate rank, and 2) AYSO has a lot of newbie refs, some of whom don't really want to do much more than the bare minimum

 

[Just a Parent]

p.s. most non-keepers 14 and under are going to extend their arm when falling. They just do...it's instinct....is that "unnaturally bigger?"

No.

 

[coachrefparent]

I've been through both the AYSO and club ref training. As I stated before, the initial AYSO training is just better than the club training and AYSO does a lot more to support people as they go along. That said, AYSO forces the parents on teams to volunteer to referee. As a result, as a new CR my biggest struggle was bringing along ARs that hadn't read the material and didn't really care because they were just doing it because they had to. In fact, I went out of my way to try and work with youth volunteers because 1) I really like working with the kids, and 2) unlike the parents, they knew their stuff, even if they needed some encouragement to make the call. Some volunteers just didn't care, wanted to do the bare minimum out there and the bare minimum of games, and unlike club refs didn't have a monetary incentive to do the work.

Both things can simultaneously be true: 1) AYSO has a lot of good experienced refs, particularly those with a higher than intermediate rank, and 2) AYSO has a lot of newbie refs, some of whom don't really want to do much more than the bare minimum

Yes. Anyone who has taken AYSO referee training and US Soccer/Cal South's training laughs at the latter. AYSO voers the laws in much more depth. But the gestapo competitive trainers will be sure you have tucked your shirt in, hold the flag at a 45 degree angle (not 44 or 46 mind you), shuffle side to side, and run to the flag on a corner kick. There is little to no in person training on the laws, and examples. Only an online test you can't fail. It's more about appearance over substance.

 

[Grace T.]

Yes. Anyone who has taken AYSO referee training and US Soccer/Cal South's training laughs at the latter. AYSO voers the laws in much more depth. But the gestapo competitive trainers will be sure you have tucked your shirt in, hold the flag at a 45 degree angle (not 44 or 46 mind you), shuffle side to side, and run to the flag on a corner kick. There is little to no in person training on the laws, and examples. Only an online test you can't fail. It's more about appearance over substance.

One of the few compliments my AYSO intermediate ref evaluator had for me was that unlike most AYSO refs, I held my flag at just the right angle, even when running with it. "Very pretty".

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

Worry. New rules are more confusing. For example, over the weekend had a game where a player fell in a challenge to a ball, used his arm to support himself (which the new rules say is not a foul) but the player's hand strikes the ball when blocking the shot and it's clear the player has made himself a bigger barrier intentionally in the mad struggle to block the shot (which is a foul after all). ^-\/-^ And there's no offense if the ball touches a hand of another player who is near? Woo boy!

In the youth game, there's no way the I'm-going-to-do-the-minimum training club refs or the volunteer AYSO refs are ever going to be able to translate this accurately. At the higher levels, I think it will provide some clarity because deliberate examples are outlined, but on the youth level it's going to be even worse than what we have. But they only care about the pro game, so that's why we get what we get.

http://www.espn.com/soccer/blog-fif...ifab-reveals-new-laws-of-the-game-for-2019-20

After reading the changes, this is actually better. This is the way I call the game now. (much to the irate parents and players that scream for handball when a player kicks the ball into their own hand.) It only seems confusing because there are a lot of words, but it is pretty clear.

The big difference is "touched". This is opposed to deliberately played. So... this means the player that has his back turned to a shot but his elbow is sticking out in "an unnatural position" and it hits his arm. I heard referees say "how can it be deliberate if he isn't even looking at the ball. Now it is just did it hit the hand, were they unnatural? Easy.

Furthermore, the argument "but he gained an advantage from the handling (accidental usually) has no merit except when they score a goal.

I think more detailed examples are way better than the vague "it needs to be deliberate". and then every referee needed to go on an epic 5 year quest to find out what deliberate meant. (it took me 5 years to figure out handling.)

 

[Surfref]

After reading the changes, this is actually better. This is the way I call the game now. (much to the irate parents and players that scream for handball when a player kicks the ball into their own hand.) It only seems confusing because there are a lot of words, but it is pretty clear.

The big difference is "touched". This is opposed to deliberately played. So... this means the player that has his back turned to a shot but his elbow is sticking out in "an unnatural position" and it hits his arm. I heard referees say "how can it be deliberate if he isn't even looking at the ball. Now it is just did it hit the hand, were they unnatural? Easy.

Furthermore, the argument "but he gained an advantage from the handling (accidental usually) has no merit except when they score a goal.

I think more detailed examples are way better than the vague "it needs to be deliberate". and then every referee needed to go on an epic 5 year quest to find out what deliberate meant. (it took me 5 years to figure out handling.)

It will be interesting what the actual wording in the LOTG are for the changes and how US Soccer teaches the interpretation. I know the first time I go to move an attacker 17y/o boy out of the defenders wall he is going to yell at me that he is allowed to be in the wall. Should be fun.

 

[outside!]

It will be interesting what the actual wording in the LOTG are for the changes and how US Soccer teaches the interpretation. I know the first time I go to move an attacker 17y/o boy out of the defenders wall he is going to yell at me that he is allowed to be in the wall. Should be fun.

It would be more fun for the rest of us if you wore a body cam this one time.

 

[Definitelynotanotherref]

It will be interesting what the actual wording in the LOTG are for the changes and how US Soccer teaches the interpretation. I know the first time I go to move an attacker 17y/o boy out of the defenders wall he is going to yell at me that he is allowed to be in the wall. Should be fun.

I imagine enforcement in case of non-cooperation is a yellow card. But I'm sure Mark Geiger is happy of this rule change... *cough cough* Columbia *cough cough*.

 

[Grace T.]

Interesting application of the new handball guidance in the Tottenham v Manchester game (thought the new rules aren't in force yet, as noted above the Champions refs seem to be instructed to rule in accordance with the guidance of the new Laws). At 0:38...handball from VAR...defender is falling (which is listed as one the circumstances not considered as a foul), unclear if deliberate, but arm is up and possibly "unnaturally bigger".

 

[Soccer Dad & Ref]

Interesting application of the new handball guidance in the Tottenham v Manchester game (thought the new rules aren't in force yet, as noted above the Champions refs seem to be instructed to rule in accordance with the guidance of the new Laws). At 0:38...handball from VAR...defender is falling (which is listed as one the circumstances not considered as a foul), unclear if deliberate, but arm is up and possibly "unnaturally bigger".

Wondering if the falling player and arm are more about downward motion though. The defender was falling, but his arm was above him like you said...

 

[Tea and Busquets]

Interesting application of the new handball guidance in the Tottenham v Manchester game (thought the new rules aren't in force yet, as noted above the Champions refs seem to be instructed to rule in accordance with the guidance of the new Laws). At 0:38...handball from VAR...defender is falling (which is listed as one the circumstances not considered as a foul), unclear if deliberate, but arm is up and possibly "unnaturally bigger".

I think the penalty was a slide (not falling, which would suggest a lack of control over the body) from Rose, with arm coming out to make the body bigger. We saw Manchester United go through in the last round against PSG on a similar decision: the defender jumped in the air with an arm away from the body. It too went to VAR and was given as a penalty.

Obviously the new laws don't come into effect until June. However, UEFA began to instruct its referees to recognize as handball last year, and this approach is what we see in the new IFAB laws as well.

 

[espola]

It appears that the handball rule change combined with VAR might be the biggest story of the WWC.