Contrasting Socks from Other Team?

Surfref said:
No where in the State and National Cup rules, all Cal South sanctioned tournament rules, DA rules, ECNL Rules and AYSO rules does it say socks must be changed if they are the same color. They all talk about what to do if jerseys match.

As for the LOTG, they say the two teams must wear colors that distinguish them from each other. The LOTG do not say anything about what (jersey, shorts, socks, shoes) must be changed. That is left up to the gaming authorities such as MLS, EPL, ECNL, Cal South, etc. All Cal South requires, by their own rules, is that jerseys must be changed. So, I do follow the LOTG and the gaming authority rules. I truly hope that I have provided enough education for you and other, so when a ref asks you to change socks you can tell them that by the Cal South rules you are only required to change jerseys.

State Cup rules 7.4. The home team is listed first in the schedule, shall have choice of team bench. Whenever possible, the field layout will be set so both teams sit on the same side of the field with the team’s spectators sitting opposite of their team bench and not past the center line. The home team shall change jerseys if the referee decides there is a color conflict, and shall supply the game balls.

LOTG Law 4
3. Colours
The two teams must wear colours that distinguish them from each other and the match officials.
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CalSouth rules do say games will be officiated in accordance with IFAB LOTG. The laws of the game say the two teams must wear colors that distinguish them from each other. "Colors" are more than jerseys.
 
I think it is pretty lame to insist that a U13 team switch socks based upon a very obscure law that is subject to interpretation. We were very lucky that all of our boys happened to have the other color of sock in their luggage from the trip. Cal South is very specific in their rule for switching jerseys. They should get specific if they want to drop this sock requirement on teams. When my son was grabbing his extra jersey for a scrimmage this weekend he asked me if he should grab some extra socks... silly.
 
lastkid said:
I think it is pretty lame to insist that a U13 team switch socks based upon a very obscure law that is subject to interpretation. We were very lucky that all of our boys happened to have the other color of sock in their luggage from the trip. Cal South is very specific in their rule for switching jerseys. They should get specific if they want to drop this sock requirement on teams. When my son was grabbing his extra jersey for a scrimmage this weekend he asked me if he should grab some extra socks... silly.
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I agree with you, but the rule is neither obscure nor subject to interpretation.
 
Just a Parent said:
CalSouth rules do say games will be officiated in accordance with IFAB LOTG. The laws of the game say the two teams must wear colors that distinguish them from each other. "Colors" are more than jerseys.
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This came up years ago at a referee meeting and the great referee, assessor and instructor old Mr L.P. said to refer to the gaming authority rules to determine what uniform items should be changed to achieve the contrasting uniforms.
 
Surfref said:
This came up years ago at a referee meeting and the great referee, assessor and instructor old Mr L.P. said to refer to the gaming authority rules to determine what uniform items should be changed to achieve the contrasting uniforms.
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Personally, I am opposed to any rules that raise the cost of participation, even for something as cheap as an extra pair of socks. I am also opposed to officials (local, state, or international) who come up with restrictions and/or inflexible positions of interpretation about who and when kids can play a game, just because they are not adhering to rules drawn up for adult professional players. Those people should be ashamed of themselves. I thought I saw a glimmer of hope a few years back when sleeveless jerseys were banned but the only punishment was to note the transgression on the game report. Those moments are too rare.

You triggered a fond memory -- Back in the 70's when I first took up coaching, Mr. LP ran a rules and skills clinic for us new coaches. By the end of the day I was so exhausted that I was puking in the grass.
 
IMO the issue that the OP raises has nothing to do with "colours" but everything to do with grossly misplaced priorities and lack of common sense.
 
Our 2006 team does not have a second color of socks, and I agree with espola that I oppose any rule that raises the costs to participate (yeah, I've spent a lot already, but there are scholarship families that don't need one more headache). For the most part, the refereeing I saw in Lancaster three weeks in a row in February was below par. There were some good ones for sure, but most needed retraining
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
Our 2006 team does not have a second color of socks, and I agree with espola that I oppose any rule that raises the costs to participate (yeah, I've spent a lot already, but there are scholarship families that don't need one more headache). For the most part, the refereeing I saw in Lancaster three weeks in a row in February was below par. There were some good ones for sure, but most needed retraining
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In assessing the referees' par level, what specific par standard were you holding them up to? In what specific areas do they need retraining? Can you give specific examples of their rules or law misapplications?
 
Just a Parent said:
In assessing the referees' par level, what specific par standard were you holding them up to? In what specific areas do they need retraining? Can you give specific examples of their rules or law misapplications?
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I'm a fan, a coach, a parent, and a referee, so have seen a lot of soccer at various levels, from recreational U6 to pros. I've only refereed club soccer as high as U16 SDDA games. I hold the U13 referees to the standard for that level, meaning they should be able to recognize all fouls, and know the laws. Their mechanics should be sound, and they should be communicating with the players and coaches more than you may see in U10, but not as much as a seasoned referee much higher (see the Australian dude's communication in that 4 minute video recently posted).

I saw one referee do a dropped ball twice in two minutes, dropping the ball from his chest height. I saw many referees not trying to stay near play during hotly contested games. I saw zero mirroring by the ARs in one game with the referee not being in the correct position to see the AR1, leading to missed offside calls and missed calls for subs. I saw one goal disallowed for offside, even though the ball was obviously played by a defender.

Look, I work with AYSO referees (am an instructor), and realize that because they are volunteers, I cannot ask for too much from them, just hope that they are there. Then hope that they help keep the game from getting out of control, and help ensure that the kids have fun. That's about it.

For paid referees, I hold a much higher standard. They should know the laws inside and out, and should have the mechanics down. Run a diagonal, stay close to play, and keep an eye on the ARs. The rest will come with experience (better foul recognition, and the ability to communicate more).
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I'm a fan, a coach, a parent, and a referee, so have seen a lot of soccer at various levels, from recreational U6 to pros. I've only refereed club soccer as high as U16 SDDA games. I hold the U13 referees to the standard for that level, meaning they should be able to recognize all fouls, and know the laws. Their mechanics should be sound, and they should be communicating with the players and coaches more than you may see in U10, but not as much as a seasoned referee much higher (see the Australian dude's communication in that 4 minute video recently posted).

I saw one referee do a dropped ball twice in two minutes, dropping the ball from his chest height. I saw many referees not trying to stay near play during hotly contested games. I saw zero mirroring by the ARs in one game with the referee not being in the correct position to see the AR1, leading to missed offside calls and missed calls for subs. I saw one goal disallowed for offside, even though the ball was obviously played by a defender.

Look, I work with AYSO referees (am an instructor), and realize that because they are volunteers, I cannot ask for too much from them, just hope that they are there. Then hope that they help keep the game from getting out of control, and help ensure that the kids have fun. That's about it.

For paid referees, I hold a much higher standard. They should know the laws inside and out, and should have the mechanics down. Run a diagonal, stay close to play, and keep an eye on the ARs. The rest will come with experience (better foul recognition, and the ability to communicate more).
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So, not one instance of law or rule misapplication? You also say "run a diagonal". What does that even mean in the modern system of officiating? And what's the point of being close to play if the angle is bad? You talk about foul recognition but not a word about reading the game or foul selection which is different for each game. These things raise questions in my mind, and I guess in most referees' minds, as to the accuracy of your assessment of the referees you saw.
 
Just a Parent said:
So, not one instance of law or rule misapplication? You also say "run a diagonal". What does that even mean in the modern system of officiating? And what's the point of being close to play if the angle is bad? You talk about foul recognition but not a word about reading the game or foul selection which is different for each game. These things raise questions in my mind, and I guess in most referees' minds, as to the accuracy of your assessment of the referees you saw.
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I can see why others here don't always appreciate your posts.

You know what I mean by diagonal. It's not the end all be all of mechanics, but what it means is you are running the field in a way to keep your AR1 in your sights.

You don't think it's valuable to be close to play? I didn't say on top of the ball, but then again, looks like you are being you today.

I'm glad you are speaking on behalf of "most referees". I'd love to take a poll on that statement.

If you don't think there were referees in need of retraining and assessment, you are blind. I could use more feedback from an unbiased source, I've made mistakes a plenty. But at least I pour over the Laws and read forums like these to learn more. Guaranteed many referees don't. Not all, I'm not going to make a statement like that...
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I'm a fan, a coach, a parent, and a referee, so have seen a lot of soccer at various levels, from recreational U6 to pros. I've only refereed club soccer as high as U16 SDDA games. I hold the U13 referees to the standard for that level, meaning they should be able to recognize all fouls, and know the laws. Their mechanics should be sound, and they should be communicating with the players and coaches more than you may see in U10, but not as much as a seasoned referee much higher (see the Australian dude's communication in that 4 minute video recently posted).

I saw one referee do a dropped ball twice in two minutes, dropping the ball from his chest height. I saw many referees not trying to stay near play during hotly contested games. I saw zero mirroring by the ARs in one game with the referee not being in the correct position to see the AR1, leading to missed offside calls and missed calls for subs. I saw one goal disallowed for offside, even though the ball was obviously played by a defender.

Look, I work with AYSO referees (am an instructor), and realize that because they are volunteers, I cannot ask for too much from them, just hope that they are there. Then hope that they help keep the game from getting out of control, and help ensure that the kids have fun. That's about it.

For paid referees, I hold a much higher standard. They should know the laws inside and out, and should have the mechanics down. Run a diagonal, stay close to play, and keep an eye on the ARs. The rest will come with experience (better foul recognition, and the ability to communicate more).
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I expect a firm rebuttal from JaP. He has reserved the position of forum refereeing expert for himself.
 
Just a Parent said:
So, not one instance of law or rule misapplication? You also say "run a diagonal". What does that even mean in the modern system of officiating? And what's the point of being close to play if the angle is bad? You talk about foul recognition but not a word about reading the game or foul selection which is different for each game. These things raise questions in my mind, and I guess in most referees' minds, as to the accuracy of your assessment of the referees you saw.
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q.e.d.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I can see why others here don't always appreciate your posts.

You know what I mean by diagonal. It's not the end all be all of mechanics, but what it means is you are running the field in a way to keep your AR1 in your sights.

You don't think it's valuable to be close to play? I didn't say on top of the ball, but then again, looks like you are being you today.

I'm glad you are speaking on behalf of "most referees". I'd love to take a poll on that statement.

If you don't think there were referees in need of retraining and assessment, you are blind. I could use more feedback from an unbiased source, I've made mistakes a plenty. But at least I pour over the Laws and read forums like these to learn more. Guaranteed many referees don't. Not all, I'm not going to make a statement like that...
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He can't help himself.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I can see why others here don't always appreciate your posts.

You know what I mean by diagonal. It's not the end all be all of mechanics, but what it means is you are running the field in a way to keep your AR1 in your sights.

You don't think it's valuable to be close to play? I didn't say on top of the ball, but then again, looks like you are being you today.

I'm glad you are speaking on behalf of "most referees". I'd love to take a poll on that statement.

If you don't think there were referees in need of retraining and assessment, you are blind. I could use more feedback from an unbiased source, I've made mistakes a plenty. But at least I pour over the Laws and read forums like these to learn more. Guaranteed many referees don't. Not all, I'm not going to make a statement like that...
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If you're going to talk about mechanics and diagonals, I'm afraid we're talking about two different classes of referees. Most referees I know and deal with are way beyond those basic things. But it's not lost on me that you didn't respond to my mentions of reading of the game or foul selection. Perhaps those concepts are foreign to you. As to closeness to play, no, I do not think that's important if the closeness to play does not accord the referee an optimal angle to see the most. And yes, I repeat, a good angle is more important than being close. And for your information, not only do you need to keep your AR1 in vision, but your trail AR and Fourth official as well at every pass.
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
I can see why others here don't always appreciate your posts.

You know what I mean by diagonal. It's not the end all be all of mechanics, but what it means is you are running the field in a way to keep your AR1 in your sights.

You don't think it's valuable to be close to play? I didn't say on top of the ball, but then again, looks like you are being you today.

I'm glad you are speaking on behalf of "most referees". I'd love to take a poll on that statement.

If you don't think there were referees in need of retraining and assessment, you are blind. I could use more feedback from an unbiased source, I've made mistakes a plenty. But at least I pour over the Laws and read forums like these to learn more. Guaranteed many referees don't. Not all, I'm not going to make a statement like that...
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Sounds fairly typical of what can been seen on the fields of Southern Ca on any given weekend. But I don't hold the referees to such a high standard. It's just a kids game, and too many are driven away by fans and coaches.
 
coachrefparent said:
Sounds fairly typical of what can been seen on the fields of Southern Ca on any given weekend. But I don't hold the referees to such a high standard. It's just a kids game, and too many are driven away by fans and coaches.
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But they are paid to referee this kid's game, so I expect more. Since, like your name implies, I am a referee/parent/coach, I've been on all sides of the equation (although I haven't been able to be just a parent for awhile now), and am respectful to the referees during the game. I have tried to teach the head coach on how to talk to referees during the game, letting him know that yelling about a call is useless. That it is best to ask what the foul is for and move on. To speak to the AR near you to ask to keep eyes on X or Y from now on...
 
Soccer Dad & Ref said:
........For paid referees, I hold a much higher standard. They should know the laws inside and out, and should have the mechanics down. Run a diagonal, stay close to play, and keep an eye on the ARs. The rest will come with experience (better foul recognition, and the ability to communicate more).
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No good ref runs the old school diagonal. You position yourself to have the best view possible while also taking into account where the play will develop and be in the next few seconds. A referee needs to be fluid both in motion and thought. If an attacker goes to the far corner I do not want to over there looking through play with play between me and the AR because the ball will likely get crossed into the middle. I need to be close enough to see the current action and also near the middle of the field where the ball will be crossed into. I can always take quick glances at my ARs which a good ref should be doing constantly. It is a referee team and not just the Referee and a couple Linesmen like back in the 80’s. Just about anyone can recognize afoul. The difficult part is knowing which fouls need to be called and which one ignored so the game stays under control and flows smoothly. That takes experience, being open to feedback from other referees and assessors. No referee is perfect but the better refs are the ones that honestly evaluate their performance and incorporate the feedback and make changes.
 
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