Can you sub a keeper for PK's?

Discussion in 'C'mon Ref!' started by lancer, Feb 28, 2018.

  1. lancer

    lancer Bronze

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    49
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +86 / 6
    So if a game is even after regulation and OT, can a coach put a player in the keep who was on the bench at the end of the game?
     
  2. GunninGopher

    GunninGopher

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    236
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ratings:
    +242 / 1
    • Informative Informative x 2
  3. umeweall

    umeweall Bronze

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0
    You may only substitute the goalie if they are injured and cannot continue to play. The substituted player may not take part in the kicks.

    Procedure
    Before kicks from the penalty mark start
    • Unless there are other considerations (e.g. ground conditions, safety etc.), the referee tosses a coin to decide the goal at which the kicks will be taken which may only be changed for safety reasons or if the goal or playing surface becomes unusable
    • The referee tosses a coin again and the team that wins the toss decides whether to take the first or second kick
    • With the exception of a substitute for a goalkeeper who is unable to continue, only players who are on the field of play or are temporarily off the field of play (injury, adjusting equipment etc.) at the end of the match are eligible to take kicks
    • Each team is responsible for selecting from the eligible players the order in which they will take the kicks. The referee is not informed of the order
    Notice that in the IFAB state of rules above, that the comment "....who is unable to continue....." is stated. This gives an injured goalie the capability to be replaced by a substitute. This substitute may not take part in the kicking. This type of thing may happen if a goalie has been injured in play before, but is just trying to 'hang in there'. For the critical kicks from the mark play, they may wish to replace that injured goalie with one that is 100% healthy. There would have needed to be some previous indication that the goalie had possibly been injured during game play, which the referee observed.

    BTW, this situation is termed 'kicks from the mark', which is different from a standard penalty kick situation.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  4. AFC

    AFC Bronze

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2016
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Ratings:
    +42 / 0
    I believe you referring to HS soccer and Yes, it is allowed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. El Clasico

    El Clasico Silver

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2017
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    123
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ratings:
    +448 / 13
    You may want to dig a little deeper as I am not sure your position is correct. You are referencing Law 10 where it applies to whether or not a player that is OFF the field (ineligible) can participate in kicks from the mark which would only be in the event of a goalkeeper who can not continue. For all the eligible players that were ON the field, it has always been my understanding that they are able to switch up if they choose.

    In other words, if, during kicks, the goalie loses an eye and can't continue, you are able to bring in a back up goalie from the bench who was, otherwise, ineligible.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. umeweall

    umeweall Bronze

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0
    Well, I will admit to an error here, on misreading/thinking. I did check with some high level referees. The response that I received back is below.

    ================================================================================================================

    You are misreading what the Law says. Here are the relevant sections:

    With the exception of a substitute for a goalkeeper who is unable to continue, only players who are on the field of play or are temporarily off the field of play (injury, adjusting equipment etc.) at the end of the match are eligible to take kicks

    A goalkeeper who is unable to continue before or during the kicks may be replaced by a player excluded to equalize the number of players or, if their team has not used its maximum permitted number of substitutes, a named substitute, but the replaced goalkeeper takes no further part and may not take a kick.

    So, first off, the first sentence above says that the only players who are eligible to participate in KFTM are those who were on the field at the end of time (this includes any overtime, extra time, or additional periods of play). This includes whoever is going to be a goalkeeper during KFTM. The Law allows that this would also include any player who was temporarily off the field at the end of time for injury or equipment or similar reason. An injured player who was off the field at the end of time who is subsequently declared “unable to continue” can be substituted for and the same is true of a goalkeeper who becomes “unable to continue” between the end of time and the end of KFTM. Under your scenario, your GK could be substituted for using anyone else on your roster (what you cannot do, however, is use a field player to change roles with the GK and then try to bring on another person to replace the player who used to be the GK but is injured). What you also cannot do is, if the rules of competition for your game allow for only a limited number of substitutions (say 3) and you have already used up all three, the injured goalkeeper has to come off but can be replaced only by a field player – which then triggers the “reduce to equate rule” (i.e., the other team has to take one of its players off the field).

    Your second issue is, as I said, a result of misreading the Law. The second sentence says that is the replaced goalkeeper – i.e., the one who is now off the field because of the injury (not the new goalkeeper) who “may not take a kick.”
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. espola

    espola Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    7,745
    Likes Received:
    716
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +4,079 / 187
    That's true for pros and international play. High school, college and some youth organizations have different rules.
     
  8. umeweall

    umeweall Bronze

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0
    Yep, and this can cause confusion, when a referee does games, crossing different parties. That is why you must ask, and read, the rules that any group has distributed.
     
  9. MakeAPlay

    MakeAPlay Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    3,976
    Likes Received:
    1,866
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +5,386 / 88
    In college they can sub in. In the 2016 NCAA tournament my players team lost in PK's and they subbed in their backup keeper who didn't play one minute of regulation or in either OT. You can have any of your eligible players take a PK and/or play keeper in the NCAA tournament. In the NCAA semifinals this year two of my player's teammates that took PK's didn't even play in the game and one other wasn't on the field when the second OT ended and came on the field for the shootout. In international play only the players on the field may participate. In club it depends upon the tournaments rules.
     
  10. outside!

    outside! Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    951
    Likes Received:
    509
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Ratings:
    +1,439 / 30
    I wonder what NCAA's rational is for not playing under the FIFA laws of the game?
     
  11. MakeAPlay

    MakeAPlay Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    3,976
    Likes Received:
    1,866
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +5,386 / 88

    Title IX. Or another way to put it is they want to encourage participation. A typical D1 women's team has 28 or so players. If you had stricter substitution rules you would probably have 20-22 on a roster. On my players team about 16-20 players play (depending upon the opponent and the flow of the game). If they played by FIFA rules then at most 14 could play (maybe 16 if they used the sub rules for most international friendlies). That is approximately a 30% reduction in participation. Since only a small percentage of players will ever play in an international match why would you want to structure the rules of a scholastic league to mirror the international ones when participation is really the primary goal?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Surfref

    Surfref Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2016
    Messages:
    913
    Likes Received:
    697
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Ratings:
    +1,807 / 21
    I had to have a keeper replaced during KFTM during a youth tournament this past summer. He dove for the ball and hit his head on the post and was bleeding (concussion protocol). I allowed the replacement keeper in and the opposing coach which crazy. The opposing coach's team ended up losing and he protested my decision. The tournament director consulted with the referee coordinator and a National Assessor and said I was correct.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. outside!

    outside! Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    951
    Likes Received:
    509
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Ratings:
    +1,439 / 30
    College football functions as a stepping stone to professional football. To some extent, so does college basketball. Unlimited substitutions in college soccer change the game dramatically for some programs, resulting in a much more direct game which does little to prepare players for the international game. While there is a good argument for eliminating college sports entirely, at this point in time it is the next stepping stone for most American female players that want to continue with the sport after high school. Male players have some (small but slowly growing) opportunity to become professional players after high school. This is not an option for all but two American female players at this time since it is very difficult to make a living as a professional female soccer player. With high school and college sports, the USA has an amazing sports infrastructure that is almost completely failing soccer players. I believe this is due to the fact that those in charge are old football, basketball and baseball players that don’t pay much attention to soccer other than to make sure it does not interfere with the “Big Three” sports. What they do not understand is that soccer will be one of the most popular US sports when our grandchildren are in college. On the other hand, maybe they do understand that and are doing everything they can to delay the inevitable. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Title IX, but as you said in another thread, the US has squandered the lead that Title IX has given us.
     
  14. espola

    espola Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    7,745
    Likes Received:
    716
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +4,079 / 187
    Primary purpose is education, secondary purpose is social life.
     
  15. espola

    espola Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    7,745
    Likes Received:
    716
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +4,079 / 187
    College soccer is not unlimited substitutions.
     
  16. MakeAPlay

    MakeAPlay Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    3,976
    Likes Received:
    1,866
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +5,386 / 88

    You confuse encouraging participation with encouraging a style of play. Plenty of foreign full national team players played college soccer in the US and it has not hindered their development very much. Not to mention that several teams do play possession (top teams and lower level teams) and my player's team is one of them. To be quite honest the direct style that most coaches play in college are the results of two things.

    First, the lack of a solid technical foundation that most college players have prevents most teams from playing a possession oriented style of play. Without 11 players (including the keeper) with this foundation it is tough to pull off effective possession against an equivalent opponent.

    Second, the coaches are paid to win and have a condensed season. Coaches essentially have 19-22 games to make their case for a tournament bid. If a coach only has a few really technical players they don't have much time to develop chemistry and a game plan before they are playing two games a week against motivated opponents. This leads to most coaches defaulting to kickball in order to win. Unless you are recruiting technical players that can think and act quickly you can be beaten by a good kick and counter team. My player's team lost to Wazzu a really advanced kickball team.

    Yeah the rest of the world has caught up but it is hard to blame college soccer when it has given us more than a sufficient head start. What we need to do is put these dinosaurs out to pasture and hire the coaches that are getting the job done.....
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. outside!

    outside! Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    951
    Likes Received:
    509
    Trophy Points:
    93
    Ratings:
    +1,439 / 30
    Participation has gotten us very far, but moving forward? I agree MAP, we need new blood at the top, including at the NCAA. The short season is also a problem. If there were no spring season, at least you could argue that it frees up players to concentrate on classes during the spring. But with the condensed fall season, fall academics are difficult and then there is still travel during the spring. It would make sense to just have a longer season with the games spread out over fall and spring.

    Espola is correct, college soccer does not have unlimited substitutions, it has almost unlimited substitutions where the limitations are just enough to make managing the subs more complicated. From the standpoint of the effects on the game, it may as well be unlimited.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. espola

    espola Silver Elite

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2016
    Messages:
    7,745
    Likes Received:
    716
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Ratings:
    +4,079 / 187
    It's not unlimited, and experienced coaches have no trouble managing substitutions within the rules as they exist.
     
  19. Just a Parent

    Just a Parent Bronze

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +83 / 5
    It's also true for State and USSF organied tournaments. It is also true for all other tournaments who have not specified a different procedure in their competition rules.
     
  20. Just a Parent

    Just a Parent Bronze

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2016
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    40
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +83 / 5
    Actually it is. The rules do not specify the number.
     

Share This Page