Is there a consensus about a younger player ('06 and younger) who plays at the DA/pre-DA/ECNL level guesting in summer tournaments with a same-age team slotted in a Flight 2 tournament bracket? I don't see an issue with that player guesting on an older team, regardless of the playing tier, but my instinct is that playing at Flight 2 or below at the same age is not exactly fair. I do not want to find an issue where there really isn't one with younger players, and I believe many teams do this. Touches/time on the ball at this age is a good thing. Seems that people who do it think it is fine and the team that loses to a team with a "ringer" thinks it's cheating. Is this OK or unfair?
Ethics of Playing at Lower Flight Levels
- Thread starter Dof3
- Start date
Fairness shouldn't be the question. We tend to take winning and loosing too seriously here, but in the long run, who cares who wins any given tournament (at any flight level)? There isn't a kid in LA who hasn't been blown out in some game or other. What matters is the development of the kids. Playing down a little can help a player develop because, as you mentioned, they get more touches/time on the ball and the added responsibility. Playing down too much, however, doesn't do anyone any good and if coaches are doing it to win flight 2 tournaments, they're the ones who have their priorities wrong.
Messi>CR7
GOLD
It's actually a good thing for your kid/team. IMHO playing a team that's slightly better (assuming the opposing team didn't bring in 4 or 5 guest players) is one of the best ways to improve. When my kid was playing flight 2, I always wanted to see how she measured up against good flight 1 players.
Also there is not a evil plot behind everything in youth soccer
. When a team is short in summer, the typical choices are:1. Play two games in 90+ degree without sub
2. Borrow player from your sister team
3. Borrow player from an outside club
#2 is just the most convenient option.
It's actually a good thing for your kid/team. IMHO playing a team that's slightly better (assuming the opposing team didn't bring in 4 or 5 guest players) is one of the best ways to improve. When my kid was playing flight 2, I always wanted to see how she measured up against good flight 1 players.
Also there is not a evil plot behind everything in youth soccer
1. Play two games in 90+ degree without sub
2. Borrow player from your sister team
3. Borrow player from an outside club
#2 is just the most convenient option.
Thanks for your thoughts. I agree with you on playing against better players, but my kid is the better player in this case. I just didn't want to feel like a jerk for letting kid play in a Flight 2 tournament bracket. Kid has occasionally guested with this team for scrimmages. Opposing coaches have asked kid what team kid really plays for, etc. I would expect that to be worse with parents/coaches in a tournament, so I was just looking for some unbiased feedback. Thanks again.
What irritates me is when I see F1 teams enter tournaments in lower brackets then win... it's like C'mon coaches (and parents) what are you doing? It does nothing for the development for the girls or boys on the F1 team to play against these lower teams. I feel so bad for the boys and girls when they actually play against teams at their level because they always lose and it's like.. hello?? These are the teams you should be playing to become a stronger team to challenge you and help you develop as a team and player!!!!
As long as they are the correct birth year - A few guests from higher level teams are ok. And as long as it's because the team has few or zero subs.
As the ECNL/DA/DPL/ECNL2 teams have changed the landscape, it's really hard to tell what flight anyone belongs in these days.
Seems that the few tournaments I've looked at this summer - Teams that are Flight 1 SCDSL have been playing in Flight 2 in tournaments.
Is this the right place?
Not many tournaments have 3 flights these days (tournaments are just as watered down as leagues are now. There's at least 4 tournaments every weekend all summer long). So you'll have DPL/ECNL/ECNL 2 teams taking up most of the Flight 1 spots. You may get an SCDSL F1 team in that bracket that has a tough time.
Then you'll have the Flight 2 bracket made up of SCDSL Flight 1 and 2 teams. The Flight 1 teams will do well. And the F2 teams will wonder/complain about a team sandbagging.
As the ECNL/DA/DPL/ECNL2 teams have changed the landscape, it's really hard to tell what flight anyone belongs in these days.
Seems that the few tournaments I've looked at this summer - Teams that are Flight 1 SCDSL have been playing in Flight 2 in tournaments.
Is this the right place?
Not many tournaments have 3 flights these days (tournaments are just as watered down as leagues are now. There's at least 4 tournaments every weekend all summer long). So you'll have DPL/ECNL/ECNL 2 teams taking up most of the Flight 1 spots. You may get an SCDSL F1 team in that bracket that has a tough time.
Then you'll have the Flight 2 bracket made up of SCDSL Flight 1 and 2 teams. The Flight 1 teams will do well. And the F2 teams will wonder/complain about a team sandbagging.
It seems to me that there are couple of things that's worth mentioning.
1) Let the kid have fun and not get hung up on the so called "lower level Flight 2 team",
2) There can be plenty of challenges regardless of how good the kid is since the player doesn't have other similar quality players to surround her. In other words, its a team sport and one good player in a field of ok players may not show the players potential since there are so many rhythm and sequences in a game to move the ball around to create chances.
Also its worth mentioning that its okay, actually good, to feel like the best player on the field sometime for confidence building and also help to make other players play better. All part of leadership quality development.
At the end of the day, its just few games and so what. There are plenty of good players at the younger ages playing for lower tier teams still.
My question is why is the kid guesting?
To get extra touches, to play with friends who don’t play higher levels, or because the coach wants a better player on the field?
In my opinion, tournaments are a joke, parents and coaches put too much emphasis on winning.
It doesn’t really do anybody any good to bring an overskilled kid in as a ringer. Granted it takes 11 to win but still.
The team doesn’t benefit from the 3-4 games they play with said player. The guest doesn’t get much value either but extra games, and most kids play enough games as it is.
One of my kids did this once years ago and we both regretted it. Quality was awful. Did she score yes. I can’t even remember if they won. It was to help the club and in hindsight I saw it as a really bad move on all parts.
I do recall one time when we played with Goats and played the top flight and we pounded everyone and the trophy hunting coaches who had bulked up their tourney roster with better players had some sour grapes when they didn’t win. But Goats was amazing because the girls did it themselves without any coaching. That’s the most fun soccer to watch.
To get extra touches, to play with friends who don’t play higher levels, or because the coach wants a better player on the field?
In my opinion, tournaments are a joke, parents and coaches put too much emphasis on winning.
It doesn’t really do anybody any good to bring an overskilled kid in as a ringer. Granted it takes 11 to win but still.
The team doesn’t benefit from the 3-4 games they play with said player. The guest doesn’t get much value either but extra games, and most kids play enough games as it is.
One of my kids did this once years ago and we both regretted it. Quality was awful. Did she score yes. I can’t even remember if they won. It was to help the club and in hindsight I saw it as a really bad move on all parts.
I do recall one time when we played with Goats and played the top flight and we pounded everyone and the trophy hunting coaches who had bulked up their tourney roster with better players had some sour grapes when they didn’t win. But Goats was amazing because the girls did it themselves without any coaching. That’s the most fun soccer to watch.
daughter was on the receiving end of that scenario a couple times in years past. it was not pretty. what's next after demoralizing the pre-teen soccer team . . . kicking puppies? kids just want to play. it's the anti-Midas touch of the parents that ruin things.
coachrefparent
GOLD
Great posts above. Basically a DA (whatever you want to call it) player playing down to lower levels is in fact a sandbagger, ringer, and likely because lower team (club) wants to win, but certainly nothing to do with development of any players, certainly not the higher level player. You can read posts here but if have experience in this game, will know that most times lesser players sit as the "developing" player brought in plays almost 100%.
But based upon your own comment, and those of opposing coaches, you already knew this. Your post shows that you have guilt about seeing your kid dominate and beat lesser players/teams. So you have your genuine answer.
The Outlaw *BANNED*
PREMIER
I hate when teams do this. People keep asking... 'who cares about winning?' KIDS DO!!! ... and "development" is not something they care about at 06. When teams bring in a ringer, it's garbage. Don't tell me you can't find an equal or slightly lesser player on a "B" team, etc. Maybe in rare instances, but if my kid is a lowest 1/3 on the roster, and you bring in a ringer who plays as much or more than my kid, you're a coach that kills a kid's spirit. "Touches" at 06 is an excuse... and you're going to get brow beaten by other parents that don't want you there to begin with. Never mind that other families and teams spend a tremendous amount of money and time to play at a tournament... only to get beaten by a team they maybe shouldn't lose to because of that kid.
I'm usually in the minority on using 'ringer' guest players... but if I can't win a tournament without that, I'd rather lose. Your kid plays at a higher level for a reason.
I'm usually in the minority on using 'ringer' guest players... but if I can't win a tournament without that, I'd rather lose. Your kid plays at a higher level for a reason.
Surf Zombie
GOLD
My 2007 will be playing in the ECNL next year. The club she plays at has a few different geographic regions. The one that is closest to our house had a lower level 2006 team that was often short on players (between 11 & 13 girls on game day). My dd guest played in 6 of their 8 league games and a tournament this year. I though it was a win-win, as she got 11 games on the big field. Playing center-mid she helped move the ball around quite a bit, which seemed to make her teammates happy. The girls won a bunch of games, she made some new friends and the parents were very receptive to her “helping out.”
This is helpful, thank you. I agree that if the purpose of kid playing was to position team to win tournament, that would be a straight no for our family. I see no benefit to my kid, the team or other kids in a clearly better player hoisting trophies in Flight 2 brackets. The context here is not quite that. The team is newly formed with some kids who are very inexperienced players and are just learning a higher level of play. Team has been losing scrimmages by wide margins (by 6-8 goals, 14-1 in one case - we would need a separate thread on why a youth coach would beat another team by 13 goals, but I digress). Coach asked her to play not to win the tournament, but because team is short subs for the summer tournaments and he does not want the new team to just get destroyed in tournaments while he is trying to teach them the basics and get them ready for the fall season. Team parents are glad to have kid play because losing 14-1 is no fun for anybody.
I posed this question because I am generally opposed to playing "down," and I am concerned that regardless of this particular context opposing coaches and parents will have issues with my kid when kid is impactful in a game because kid looks like a different level player - at times. Kid is certainly not always consistent, and in some ways could use the experience for some of the same reasons Mirage notes. I am fine with kids playing "up" in years or competitiveness. This situation feels a little different to me, which is why I wanted some feedback on this generally. But the variance of opinion here confirms my expectation that some opposing parents/coaches are likely to have issues with my kid playing, so we will be eyes open if kid plays. Thanks to all for your thoughts.
futboldad1
PREMIER
I have heard this complaint a lot and I'd like to hear why this is the fault of the winning coach. Would it be less insulting if the opposing coach just played keep away once it got to 10, or should he/she allow the other team to stage a comeback by telling their team not to defend, or maybe play with 6 players and the rest can just sit on the bench.
Yes it sucks to see a youth team blown out, and it may be upsetting to some of the kids on it, but unless the other team is playing bootball and fouling and celebrating every goal like they won the World Cup then it's poor sportsmanship. But if a team is playing good soccer and being respectful with physicality and celebrations then I'd more look to the coach on the losing team and ask why they scheduled such an opponent. Or maybe the losing coach is OK with it and sees it as a learning opportunity and it's us parents whose egos are bruised.
I think the mentality of this situation has to shift towards "we need to get better" as opposed to "shame on them for scoring" if we're going to begin closing the gap with the rest of the world in soccer. What we do need a separate thread for is the need for relegation and a true league pyramid in the pro game...................
Why in the hell would a coach enter a tournament when his team is getting crushed in friendlies by wide margins?
Play more friendlies.
Save the money for tournaments and put it toward something else. (More training. Pizza party. Futsal. TOCA).
And if lots of kids are gone on a weekend of a scheduled tournament- Don’t play in that tournament that weekend.
Play more friendlies.
Save the money for tournaments and put it toward something else. (More training. Pizza party. Futsal. TOCA).
And if lots of kids are gone on a weekend of a scheduled tournament- Don’t play in that tournament that weekend.
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Also good points, but 14-1 is a little excessive in my view without adjustment to style of play in that game. There are plenty of things for kids to work on productively in that case. Shots only by defenders on overlaps or outside players on underlaps, five connected passes before shots - adjustments that many coaches opt for in that situation. If, with those adjustments, team still wins 14-1 then so be it. But just relentlessly pounding a significantly weaker team is no more sporting than ringers winning tournaments.
El Clasico
GOLD
Or you could look at like the coach is doing your team a favor. He is letting you know that you guys are playing at the wrong level....period!!
jrcaesar
SILVER ELITE
^^This is a good reason, assuming the coach is adding 1 and not 4 players and is balancing the regular kids' minutes.
Possible answer: Some clubs have reciprocal agreements where they each have to enter teams in each other's tournaments. Agree with you that they should play fewer of them.
jpeter
PREMIER
Wait they're ethics in youth sports?
If coaches & players are abiding & following the rules and codes of conduct for example are they ethical? Officals there to remind them or give "caution" when needed? If there are not specific rules in places governing something can ethics be questioned?
Now morals that's a different story? Individual’s own principles regarding right and wrong. Is gaming the system like playing down a moral question? Yes would seem to be the case for some.
My personal take is that up to the players with the help of their parents to decided what's right or not if asked. Guest playing can be very rewarding with good learning and development possiblitities.
Would I recommend my player(s) guest at the same level or lower same age group? No way; either play up if there is not a higher level or considering working on other things. Injury fill in or to help out at sister/brother club team at the same age/level not withstanding but no way at a lower level in any case would I think that's morally the correct recommendation.
If coaches & players are abiding & following the rules and codes of conduct for example are they ethical? Officals there to remind them or give "caution" when needed? If there are not specific rules in places governing something can ethics be questioned?
Now morals that's a different story? Individual’s own principles regarding right and wrong. Is gaming the system like playing down a moral question? Yes would seem to be the case for some.
My personal take is that up to the players with the help of their parents to decided what's right or not if asked. Guest playing can be very rewarding with good learning and development possiblitities.
Would I recommend my player(s) guest at the same level or lower same age group? No way; either play up if there is not a higher level or considering working on other things. Injury fill in or to help out at sister/brother club team at the same age/level not withstanding but no way at a lower level in any case would I think that's morally the correct recommendation.
If they are newly formed why is the coach playing flight 2? It also seems like the coach is selecting the wrong tournaments as there are tournaments out there for lower level flight 3 teams....granted, in the final rounds they are usually placed against flight 2 teams that crush them, but that's par for the course (in the semi's of a tournament dear son's team got crushed 10-0 by a silver elite team just 2 weekends back....that's par for the course for most new teams and it's part of the learning experience).
The only justification I would see here is if the team doesn't have enough subs, but then only if the team has already committed to the tournie (and some circumstances forced them down) and only after trying to find an appropriate placed level player. It seems from what you've written that's only part of the story and your coach is indeed trying to get some higher level help in the tournament (perhaps not to win, but to avoid getting crushed). That's still not a great reason IMHO for bringing in a ringer, as somebody's got to finish at the bottom of the pool....if everyone did it, well.....