Red or Yellow? Stanford v. UNC foul

Mystery Train

Mystery Train

GOLD
I know these are judgement calls, and there's always going to be room for some disagreement, but this came up on another thread and I wanted to get the opinions of you experienced refs on the forum.

Foul on Tierna Davidson at the 18 second mark in the video. Ref called a foul, gives a yellow. The close up angle shows that it's a studs-up challenge. Maybe the ref didn't see the cleats up, but even if not, this looks like a dangerous challenge and red-card worthy to me, even from the wide angle view because the player leaves her feet for the slide so early and from such a long distance from the player in possession. I thought so the instant I saw it, but I also was biased by already knowing that Davidson's ankle got broken on the play. Thoughts?

 
Clear red - the benefit of slow motion and close angles helps. UNC player lunges with studs up, left her feet and contact high on the ankle.

Can also see why the referee could have thought it was yellow in real time, though. Not the best positioning to see where the contact was made.
 
If I was positioned where the CR was, I probably would have given a Red. AR should have helped him. But, we all know during big higher level games referees are can be reluctant to pull that red card out early in a game.
 
Surfref said:
If I was positioned where the CR was, I probably would have given a Red. AR should have helped him. But, we all know during big higher level games referees are can be reluctant to pull that red card out early in a game.
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That’s the biggest factor here, but not a great excuse. That’s s very big game and of course you don’t want to have to change the dynamic with a send off. But it looks like he should have
 
Thanks for the responses. Confirms what I thought, too. I didn't think about the AR's input, but that's a great point. They would have had the best view of that tackle. Here's a follow up question... Suppose the CR sees a tackle, calls a foul, and instantly shows a yellow. Then suppose as he's processing what he saw, he changes his mind and says to himself, "I should have given a red there." Can/Should you as a ref correct what you believe is your mistake as long as play has not resumed?
 
Surfref said:
If I was positioned where the CR was, I probably would have given a Red. AR should have helped him. But, we all know during big higher level games referees are can be reluctant to pull that red card out early in a game.
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Tell me if I'm wrong, it seems to me the AR usually follows along with whatever the center ref does or says, I have seen Ar's change the direction of their flag after looking at the CR and I have also seen an AR look at the CR before raising the flag.
Not getting down on refs, just asking .
 
Sheriff Joe said:
Tell me if I'm wrong, it seems to me the AR usually follows along with whatever the center ref does or says, I have seen Ar's change the direction of their flag after looking at the CR and I have also seen an AR look at the CR before raising the flag.
Not getting down on refs, just asking .
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The ref “team” tries to get the calls right. ARs are there to assist the center with input from different angles and things that the center referee might not have seen. It’s true that the center is in charge and ultimately will make the final decision, but a good center who trusts his/her ARs will receive information from them and use it to make the most correct calls as possible.
I always try to get input with eye contact on almost every call from a throw in to a penalty or card from an AR who is qualified to assist me. Some aren’t and that does complicate things.
At the youth level there are referees who don’t work in this way, but at higher levels they should. Most of the higher level teams have headset communication which lets them discuss calls that need to be.
 
coachrefparent said:
You asked how he knew the "attitudes' (ie. refereeing style) of many referees. I explained how he would know this, because referees tell you when they post. Sorry, you don't understand this.
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I think your data base is slightly off. As is your reasoning, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
Mystery Train said:
Thanks for the responses. Confirms what I thought, too. I didn't think about the AR's input, but that's a great point. They would have had the best view of that tackle. Here's a follow up question... Suppose the CR sees a tackle, calls a foul, and instantly shows a yellow. Then suppose as he's processing what he saw, he changes his mind and says to himself, "I should have given a red there." Can/Should you as a ref correct what you believe is your mistake as long as play has not resumed?
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Yes. Ideally, before handing out the yellow, the referee should consult the AR in position. At the youth level, the "code" is that the AR moves their free hand to touch the left chest pocket (signifies a yellow) or moves their free hand to their back pants pocket (signifies a red). Why the pocket or butt? Most referees keep the yellow in the left pocket and red in the pants pocket ... you don't want to accidentally give a kid a red when you though you were reaching for the yellow.

Referees are encouraged to make the correct call, which means revising a call in the event additional information is received before play restarts. Once play restarts, the call is cast in concrete.
 
Mystery Train said:
Thanks for the responses. Confirms what I thought, too. I didn't think about the AR's input, but that's a great point. They would have had the best view of that tackle. Here's a follow up question... Suppose the CR sees a tackle, calls a foul, and instantly shows a yellow. Then suppose as he's processing what he saw, he changes his mind and says to himself, "I should have given a red there." Can/Should you as a ref correct what you believe is your mistake as long as play has not resumed?
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It can be corrected/changed as long as it is done before play is restarted. Does it look good if a referee gives a yellow and then changes to a red, hell no. Before I issue a card I always slow everything down and replay what I saw a couple times in my head.

I only screwed up card colors once. I always put my yellow card in my left jersey pocket and red in back right shorts pocket. One time I accidently ended up with both cards in the jersey pocket and pulled the red out by mistake. I didn't even realize it until I heard a bunch of yelling about a red card. I put the red card in my shorts pocket and showed the player the correct yellow card. That was one of the few times people were happy for a yellow card.
 
Surfref said:
It can be corrected/changed as long as it is done before play is restarted. Does it look good if a referee gives a yellow and then changes to a red, hell no. Before I issue a card I always slow everything down and replay what I saw a couple times in my head.

I only screwed up card colors once. I always put my yellow card in my left jersey pocket and red in back right shorts pocket. One time I accidently ended up with both cards in the jersey pocket and pulled the red out by mistake. I didn't even realize it until I heard a bunch of yelling about a red card. I put the red card in my shorts pocket and showed the player the correct yellow card. That was one of the few times people were happy for a yellow card.
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Thanks. I asked that specifically because I've begun volunteer reffing AYSO games and I've already had some moments where I almost immediately realized I made the wrong call (no cards given tho) and kind of panicked about whether to correct it. When I did, the coaches always seemed to smell blood in the water (weak ref!) and the rest of the game was more difficult for me. But when I didn't correct it, I felt like I had knowingly cheated one side.

Every soccer parent should take a ref class and try reffing some games. I have a whole new level of respect for the job.
 
Mystery Train said:
Thanks. I asked that specifically because I've begun volunteer reffing AYSO games and I've already had some moments where I almost immediately realized I made the wrong call (no cards given tho) and kind of panicked about whether to correct it. When I did, the coaches always seemed to smell blood in the water (weak ref!) and the rest of the game was more difficult for me. But when I didn't correct it, I felt like I had knowingly cheated one side.

Every soccer parent should take a ref class and try reffing some games. I have a whole new level of respect for the job.
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Awesome. It gets better the more experience you get. One thing I always tell new recruits is to go slow. You hardly ever need to make a snap judgement. Even a foul you should take that extra second to look for advantage or to see if it “matters” if you call it. If it does, a slightly late whistle is much better than a quick wrong one.

Welcome. There’s no better place to watch a game than standing a few yards away
 
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