New High School Soccer Schedule - Impact on Thanksgiving Tourneys?

coachsamy said:
This way of thinking is what making varsity sports irrelevant in High School. How does a pay per play game is more important than the experience of HS Athletics? The main reason Varsity sports play preseason is so the teams can bond together for the season and hopefully make it to the playoffs. I know a lot of people will disagree and rightly so, however varsity athletics goes a little beyond of just playing the game, its about enjoying the time in high school, playing with your classmates, taking pride of your school colors and preparing to do so in a college environment, which after all that's what most people are chasing is that coveted college scholarship.

Last night at my DD's varsity Lacrosse banquet I was blown away by her coach's speech(Event that it drag a little too long) by mentioning great qualities of each one of the 22 players on the team, thanking the seniors for their years of dedication and multisport participation representing the school. To me that was more valuable than any pay for play tournament. How does this relate to this thread? That high school sports are important in an athlete's life and as a parent it should be the priority for our kids. If the soccer club is mad because they lost a player($$$$) for 3-4 months timeframe sounds to me like they need to figure out what to do.
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I fully agree with some of the points you made, the others maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly or we can just agree to disagree. Let me clarify a bit:

1. My daughter is a freshman this year and her hs season was an amazing experience for her. Playing with her classmates she sees everyday, the community and school spirit, the recognition and respect of being a freshman starter on a varsity team, all of which were amplified in a good way as they made their way through the playoffs and won a CIF title. Any freshman, is a little fish in a big pond looking for their niche. Soccer did this for her. Unless she was dead set on playing DA, I will always encourage her to play the high school game (yes I'm assuming she would make a Da team). I also agree the balance between grades and soccer in hs is a good prep for the college experience and learning time management. She had many late study nights because practice ran over or traffic was terrible.
2. When the hs season started, we had to reschedule some CRL games that were scheduled for December. This became an issue when a few players on the club team had hs coaches that were going to punish them harshly (multiple games sitting out) for playing those CRL games. The club teams goal all year was to win CRL and go to Hawaii. Now some were faced with abandoning their teammates during a crucial point in the CRL season. Call it pay to play all you want, these girls had a goal and were close to reaching it. Thats a difficult decision for any player let alone the parents in the background.
3. I never said I thought varsity sports were irrelevant in high school. I believe the CIF people (whoever dreamt this up knowing the club schedule and not caring) are putting these players in a position where they have to choose between their club and their hs. On top of that, its no secret that players get recruited from the games they play with their club and not their high school. I never said club (pay to play in your words) was more important. But if my daughter is emailing a college coach that will be attending a thanksgiving tournament to see her play, how is a pre-season high school game more important than that? It would be my personal hope she would decide to play in front of the scout which I believe she would. As would many other club players on her hs team and probably many of the hs teams they would be playing against. This would now relegate the 2nd and 3rd string hs players to a starting position. Does it really matter who wins a hs tournament with the bench players playing? By the time league play rolls around and into CIF playoffs the teams will look totally different and be the "real" teams they could not be because CIF decided to throw some weight around. Which in my opinion is what would make the preseason irrelevant.
4. Not sure why the soccer club would be mad about lost $$$, the price is yearly with the hs break factored in already.
 
MWN said:
My solution to this problem is relatively simple, my kid moved teams. His HS Varsity coach is also his club coach, problem solved ... just play wherever the coach tells him.

For the record, there are really 3 types of game like events.

1. "inter-squad scrimmage" aka practice - scrimmage game between varsity and jv or jv and freshman, these don't count and you can have an unpaid guy in a referee's shirt managing the scrimmage.

2. "interscholastic scrimmage" - training session between two to three schools. Includes, a single Alumni game. Can have an unpaid official. Must be played before team's first interscholastic contest. Unpaid referee only. Does not count against the 20 contest rule.

3. "interscholastic contest" - non-league, tournament or league game. Maximum of 20 contests, not including playoffs.

With regard to Club overlap (BlueBook SS):
Rule 2509 - During Individual’s Season of Sport - A member of a high school soccer team may not, during his or her season of sport, compete for an outside team in the sport of soccer. A season of sport (see Bylaw 504) is defined as that period which begins with a student’s first interscholastic competition (nonleague, tournament, or league game) and ends with that student’s last interscholastic contest (tournament, non-league or CIF Southern Section playoff).

For our purposes in 2018 that is November 12 for the Southern Section (including SD). In other words, a Club/HS player can practice through November 11 with both teams and play a club event through November 11. If the player continues to play club they cannot "compete" for the HS.
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What is the 20 contest rule? Is that the number of games a high school can play in a season? Because many play more than that.
 
MWN said:
For our purposes in 2018 that is November 12 for the Southern Section (including SD). In other words, a Club/HS player can practice through November 11 with both teams and play a club event through November 11. If the player continues to play club they cannot "compete" for the HS.
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The problem with this is many club coaches will tell players to sit out HS games so they can finish club season. In few cases it goes deep into December if club team is participating in Disney Showcase. In some schools it means they don't have 1/2 or more of their Varsity team available and resort to use lower level players to play Pre-season games.
 
DefndrDad said:
This became an issue when a few players on the club team had hs coaches that were going to punish them harshly (multiple games sitting out) for playing those CRL games.
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You raise an important point with this example. You can't just dismiss HS preseason games as meaningless. Players, especially younger players, risk retaliation if they miss. But skipping showcase tournaments may hurt them even more. So I guess clubs will go ahead and play Thanksgiving this year and let the chips fall where they may.
 
Eagle33 said:
The problem with this is many club coaches will tell players to sit out HS games so they can finish club season. In few cases it goes deep into December if club team is participating in Disney Showcase. In some schools it means they don't have 1/2 or more of their Varsity team available and resort to use lower level players to play Pre-season games.
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Pushing up the league start date to December 22 will certainly effect a few players, especially any boys on teams playing the Disney Showcase (December 22), but my understanding was there wasn't any HS aged Cal South teams in the showcase last year, so I don't know how much of a problem this will be and it would only impact maybe a few SoCal kids. The girls showcase is over the Thanksgiving Holiday, so not much of a problem, unless the HS coach is a jerk.

If I was a HS coach, I would think I would be intelligent enough to encourage all the players to continue playing club until the season started (mid-December) knowing that the play was likely higher than anything at the HS level. Come to practice, but just don't compete in meaningless preseason contests, let the second stringers and some JV players fill in the holes. If it truly is about winning, then be prepared when league starts.
 
coachsamy said:
I have not encounter none of those issues as you mention besides the 2 referees thing. Now one thing I'll say most of these 2 ref crews did by far a better job than a lot of 3 ref crews I encounter in club soccer. I will agree with you that girls soccer should be schedule to be played under the lights and bring more people. CIF could be the issue with their scheduling and funding, however the rest is a reflection of the parents.

Even better yet, look at the bios of college players and let me know how many of those players list any club accomplishments vs HS accomplishments.
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Your player never played on a tiny football field? As long as the people that design high school sports complexes decide that it is OK for the soccer players to play on a postage stamp, the HS game will have more contact and more injuries. I have seen some good two ref crews, but the worst were far worse than the average 3 ref club crew. The college bio thing is meaningless since it is the school website format that determines what accolades they list. Some mention club but most websites only mention high school for whatever reason.

CIF's limitations on college ID camp attendance impacts female soccer players but not male football players due to how the high school and college seasons are concurrent (football) or not (soccer). Those CIF rules were made by a bunch of old football players who could give a rats ass about soccer or Title IX. If I ever win the lotto, CIF will be facing a Title IX lawsuit.
 
DefndrDad said:
I fully agree with some of the points you made, the others maybe I didn't state my opinion clearly or we can just agree to disagree. Let me clarify a bit:

1. My daughter is a freshman this year and her hs season was an amazing experience for her. Playing with her classmates she sees everyday, the community and school spirit, the recognition and respect of being a freshman starter on a varsity team, all of which were amplified in a good way as they made their way through the playoffs and won a CIF title. Any freshman, is a little fish in a big pond looking for their niche. Soccer did this for her. Unless she was dead set on playing DA, I will always encourage her to play the high school game (yes I'm assuming she would make a Da team). I also agree the balance between grades and soccer in hs is a good prep for the college experience and learning time management. She had many late study nights because practice ran over or traffic was terrible.
2. When the hs season started, we had to reschedule some CRL games that were scheduled for December. This became an issue when a few players on the club team had hs coaches that were going to punish them harshly (multiple games sitting out) for playing those CRL games. The club teams goal all year was to win CRL and go to Hawaii. Now some were faced with abandoning their teammates during a crucial point in the CRL season. Call it pay to play all you want, these girls had a goal and were close to reaching it. Thats a difficult decision for any player let alone the parents in the background.
3. I never said I thought varsity sports were irrelevant in high school. I believe the CIF people (whoever dreamt this up knowing the club schedule and not caring) are putting these players in a position where they have to choose between their club and their hs. On top of that, its no secret that players get recruited from the games they play with their club and not their high school. I never said club (pay to play in your words) was more important. But if my daughter is emailing a college coach that will be attending a thanksgiving tournament to see her play, how is a pre-season high school game more important than that? It would be my personal hope she would decide to play in front of the scout which I believe she would. As would many other club players on her hs team and probably many of the hs teams they would be playing against. This would now relegate the 2nd and 3rd string hs players to a starting position. Does it really matter who wins a hs tournament with the bench players playing? By the time league play rolls around and into CIF playoffs the teams will look totally different and be the "real" teams they could not be because CIF decided to throw some weight around. Which in my opinion is what would make the preseason irrelevant.
4. Not sure why the soccer club would be mad about lost $$$, the price is yearly with the hs break factored in already.
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Thank you for clarifying your point and making excellent points based on your experience. As this is a complex issue with so many variables, opinions, we would disagree with many points, however I do believe that most of us as parents share a common goal of seeing our children succeed in life and do better than we did.

Any club soccer activity such as CRL, tournaments, ID Camps, etc. that have surface during HS season need to move around to appease their customer which are the kids playing in HS. CRL I believe does their olders around HS season, there are college showcases through the summer and late spring. Top Schools College coaches are sitting at DA/ECNL activities anyways, so a video of the game and a schedule of the players games would do, so if a college coach wants that player badly based on the video provided, that college coach will make the effort to go watch a game or 2. But because things had been facilitated so much for college coaches your points in regards to exposition at pay per play are valid and forces parents to play Thanksgiving tournaments. The customer always have control of the situation.
 
outside! said:
Your player never played on a tiny football field? As long as the people that design high school sports complexes decide that it is OK for the soccer players to play on a postage stamp, the HS game will have more contact and more injuries. I have seen some good two ref crews, but the worst were far worse than the average 3 ref club crew. The college bio thing is meaningless since it is the school website format that determines what accolades they list. Some mention club but most websites only mention high school for whatever reason.

CIF's limitations on college ID camp attendance impacts female soccer players but not male football players due to how the high school and college seasons are concurrent (football) or not (soccer). Those CIF rules were made by a bunch of old football players who could give a rats ass about soccer or Title IX. If I ever win the lotto, CIF will be facing a Title IX lawsuit.
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Which school has a tiny football field? Most HS stadiums in San Diego are good enough, even San Ysidro has a pretty decent stadium.

The college bio is meaningless because they vaguely mention club? Because doesn't justify the expenditure of money through however many years?

Who's fault is it that colleges make their ID's when clubs cannot legally cater to them? What about attending a summer or late spring college ID? Winter ID are cool only for places where the weather varies from Socal, other than that is mostly a winter money grab.

Finally go find a shark lawyer and sue because you do have a case against CIF, don't wait until you win the lotto, by then you won't care enough.
 
coachsamy said:
Thank you for clarifying your point and making excellent points based on your experience. As this is a complex issue with so many variables, opinions, we would disagree with many points, however I do believe that most of us as parents share a common goal of seeing our children succeed in life and do better than we did.

Any club soccer activity such as CRL, tournaments, ID Camps, etc. that have surface during HS season need to move around to appease their customer which are the kids playing in HS. CRL I believe does their olders around HS season, there are college showcases through the summer and late spring. Top Schools College coaches are sitting at DA/ECNL activities anyways, so a video of the game and a schedule of the players games would do, so if a college coach wants that player badly based on the video provided, that college coach will make the effort to go watch a game or 2. But because things had been facilitated so much for college coaches your points in regards to exposition at pay per play are valid and forces parents to play Thanksgiving tournaments. The customer always have control of the situation.
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I've personally seen more than few college coaches at HS games
 
coachsamy said:
Who's fault is it that colleges make their ID's when clubs cannot legally cater to them?
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ID camps are scheduled when coaches are available. High school soccer seasons vary around the country, as do the rules for playing concurrently in club/high school. Per this article, as of 2011, 26 states had no prohibition whatsoever on playing club sports concurrently with the same sport in high school. https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01...ub-sports-participation-during-school-season/
 
SocalPapa said:
ID camps are scheduled when coaches are available. High school soccer seasons vary around the country, as do the rules for playing concurrently in club/high school. Per this article, as of 2011, 26 states had no prohibition whatsoever on playing club sports concurrently with the same sport in high school. https://www.mercurynews.com/2014/01...ub-sports-participation-during-school-season/
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That would be interesting if it happens!

This weekend Legends Showcase has listed quite a great list of college coaches going to that tournament. I wonder if non-DA teams will get just the attention of Norco College and Grampling State or the powerhouses will take a look at all the brackets to try to dig for hidden gems.
 
outside! said:
Your player never played on a tiny football field? As long as the people that design high school sports complexes decide that it is OK for the soccer players to play on a postage stamp, the HS game will have more contact and more injuries. I have seen some good two ref crews, but the worst were far worse than the average 3 ref club crew. The college bio thing is meaningless since it is the school website format that determines what accolades they list. Some mention club but most websites only mention high school for whatever reason.

CIF's limitations on college ID camp attendance impacts female soccer players but not male football players due to how the high school and college seasons are concurrent (football) or not (soccer). Those CIF rules were made by a bunch of old football players who could give a rats ass about soccer or Title IX. If I ever win the lotto, CIF will be facing a Title IX lawsuit.
Click to expand...

That field at RB HS is insanely small. By far the narrowist in SD. As for the refs, the majority of Hs refs are also club refs. The HS ref association does a better job of matching the right refs to the right game. Sometimes us refs just have a bad game.
 
coachsamy said:
Which school has a tiny football field? Most HS stadiums in San Diego are good enough, even San Ysidro has a pretty decent stadium.

The college bio is meaningless because they vaguely mention club? Because doesn't justify the expenditure of money through however many years?

Who's fault is it that colleges make their ID's when clubs cannot legally cater to them? What about attending a summer or late spring college ID? Winter ID are cool only for places where the weather varies from Socal, other than that is mostly a winter money grab.

Finally go find a shark lawyer and sue because you do have a case against CIF, don't wait until you win the lotto, by then you won't care enough.
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Outside and I took the same approach to the winter ID camps and had our daughters attend the camps and either skip the HS season or part of it. Worked out great for both girls since they have and will play college soccer with scholarship $$$$$.

There are a bunch fields in SD that are either very narrow, short or both. San Ysidro is one of the better fields.
 
DefndrDad said:
What is the 20 contest rule? Is that the number of games a high school can play in a season? Because many play more than that.
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Tournaments only count as 2 games each, no matter how many are played, and post-season playoffs (Section and State) don't count at all. It's not hard for a good team to get to 29 games.
 
coachsamy said:
Which school has a tiny football field? Most HS stadiums in San Diego are good enough, even San Ysidro has a pretty decent stadium.

The college bio is meaningless because they vaguely mention club? Because doesn't justify the expenditure of money through however many years?

Who's fault is it that colleges make their ID's when clubs cannot legally cater to them? What about attending a summer or late spring college ID? Winter ID are cool only for places where the weather varies from Socal, other than that is mostly a winter money grab.

Finally go find a shark lawyer and sue because you do have a case against CIF, don't wait until you win the lotto, by then you won't care enough.
Click to expand...

Rancho Bernardo, according to the coaches' grapevine, deliberately built the soccer field narrow and short (100 x 57 yards) for a home-field advantage.
 
Will this move state cup for Olders to be played sooner?
My kids aren’t in HS yet- but I’d think it would be a welcome change to not have to play a tournament over Thanksgiving weekend.
 
timbuck said:
Will this move state cup for Olders to be played sooner?
My kids aren’t in HS yet- but I’d think it would be a welcome change to not have to play a tournament over Thanksgiving weekend.
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Playing over Thanksgiving has nothing to do with player's age. During Thanksgiving You either let your player play or you don't.
 
timbuck said:
Will this move state cup for Olders to be played sooner?
My kids aren’t in HS yet- but I’d think it would be a welcome change to not have to play a tournament over Thanksgiving weekend.
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Unlikely. State Cup starting and finishing is dictated by the number of teams that enter and field space (preference for complexes). The HS aged olders (Governors Cup) don't get started until mid April. Technically, HS playoffs are over by first week of March.

Shifting soccer up a few weeks isn't going to change the Cal South field space problem.
 
Probably a much broader question, but here goes - Why is soccer a winter sport in So Cal? Why not make it a Spring high school sport?
Club runs through fall with State Cup wrapped up for all age groups by end of February. High School kids play in Spring. Younger kids do their Spring friendlies, Spring leagues and tournaments.
Does this announced change only impact soccer?
Is this CIF's way of saying "screw you club soccer. You took your DA players out of our competition, so now we are going to make life a bit more challenging for your coaches and players."
 
No, the change does not only impact soccer. CIF changed dates for many programs (fall through spring): https://www.noozhawk.com/article/prep_seasons_will_start_end_earlier_in_2018_19

Soccer is a winter sports in So Cal because Football is a fall sport (nobody is changing this) and Track/Field and Lacrosse are Spring sports. If soccer were to move to Spring then Track/Field and Lacrosse would need to switch to Winter. Consider that schools generally only have 1 field/stadium. Teams need to practice and share resources. Football uses the fields/stadium almost exclusively in Fall. Football is the 800 pound gorilla because it makes money (sort of) for the schools. Once football ends, soccer (boys and girls need practice field and game space) which is exactly the same spot for most schools that football just left. Once soccer ends, the track and field and lacrosse teams need field space, which is the exact spot that soccer just vacated. In fact, its not unusual to be playing a JV soccer game in the stadium and have the track and field team on the track warming up/practicing (an annoyance).

Because soccer can be played in the rain with little danger, whereas, track and field should not (more dangerous with certain events) ... winter it is.
 
timbuck said:
Probably a much broader question, but here goes - Why is soccer a winter sport in So Cal? Why not make it a Spring high school sport?
Club runs through fall with State Cup wrapped up for all age groups by end of February. High School kids play in Spring. Younger kids do their Spring friendlies, Spring leagues and tournaments.
Does this announced change only impact soccer?
Is this CIF's way of saying "screw you club soccer. You took your DA players out of our competition, so now we are going to make life a bit more challenging for your coaches and players."
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Soccer was a winter sport for HS So Cal long before anyone even knew about club soccer.
 
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