Playing out of the Back!

80sforce

BRONZE
My 05 Keeper Son is entering his 3rd season of heavy possession style soccer. He trains 2 days a week with the team, participating in field player drills. It has been great for his footwork. He goes to Goalie training once a week. I support the philosophy and feel like i'm getting my moneys worth of Development. But more often than not, IT"S SUPER SKETCHY. My family and fellow parents are having heart attacks as the outside defender sends the ball back across the middle to the keeper for the 3rd time in the sequence.

What are your thoughts for this type of play for your keeper?
Do you freak out too?
Do you see more or less of this with the Olders (High School)?
 
My 05 Keeper Son is entering his 3rd season of heavy possession style soccer. He trains 2 days a week with the team, participating in field player drills. It has been great for his footwork. He goes to Goalie training once a week. I support the philosophy and feel like i'm getting my moneys worth of Development. But more often than not, IT"S SUPER SKETCHY. My family and fellow parents are having heart attacks as the outside defender sends the ball back across the middle to the keeper for the 3rd time in the sequence.

What are your thoughts for this type of play for your keeper?
Do you freak out too?
Do you see more or less of this with the Olders (High School)?
Last season, after many years of searching my DD finally found a team who plays consistently out of the back like this. She's older than yours by a few years. We sought out this style because when we spoke to college coaches at camps, they all emphasized that the biggest weakness in HS keepers they recruited was the ability to play with their feet and comfort playing out of the back. Luckily, her team was so used to the concept, the parents rarely freak out when the ball is passed back, even under heavy pressure. But this style (especially at the youngers) is going to result in some bad goals once in a while. There is just no way around it. Everyone just has to understand that it's part of the process. We were in a championship game where one of the goals we gave up was because of a soft pass back which was intercepted and easily passed into an empty net. Our coach told the parents and the team, "That's going to happen sometimes when you play like we do. It just comes with the territory, and it will be worth it in the long run to learn from it and keep playing our style." I don't freak out unless my kid is being too casual with the ball. I love it because I get that this is all about development for the long haul. Unfortunately, I don't see enough of this at any age level. In HS soccer, it's worse. It's all kick ball. At the older club levels, you will see a handful of really good teams playing out of the back. Don't worry about all the mistakes or funny bounces on bad fields that happen at the youngers age. Stick with it and it will pay off big time later.
 
My 05 Keeper Son is entering his 3rd season of heavy possession style soccer. He trains 2 days a week with the team, participating in field player drills. It has been great for his footwork. He goes to Goalie training once a week. I support the philosophy and feel like i'm getting my moneys worth of Development. But more often than not, IT"S SUPER SKETCHY. My family and fellow parents are having heart attacks as the outside defender sends the ball back across the middle to the keeper for the 3rd time in the sequence.

What are your thoughts for this type of play for your keeper?
Do you freak out too?
Do you see more or less of this with the Olders (High School)?
1 - If the team she is with can't play this way we need to find a new team,
2 - No, I trust her. She has worked long and hard on this. nothing she can do if a teammates "shots" the ball at the net versus passing back,
3 - If you aren't playing it out of the back you are playing kickball (IMO).

Stick with it; it is the right way to play. Good luck to your kid.
 
First of all, I have to say that I love this GK forum. Everyone has been super constructive and kind. You are all GK parents, so no surprise. :)

Having a heart attack about this kind of play is normal. Especially at your keepers age. I would say about two years ago is when that style of play became more and more common or expected from my keeper (U 13/14). She is an 03. I was a train wreck watching it at the beginning, and there were definitely mistakes made, especially related to her confidence. Not anticipating that another player saw what she was thinking about doing, and could come in and score. And then that would make her more nervous about doing it again. She is so much more comfortable now. And there is still plenty of room for improvement. I think confidence and decision making are key factors in improving their abilities. Now she plays pretty well with her feet and has a good ability to know when to do an underhand throw or an overhand throw, etc. Her last game in National Cup, I was blown away by her confidence and decision making improvements. She made plays in her last game of the season that she could have/would have never made in Sept. Even her coach has said so. I know it's hard and wish you and your keeper the best. This is where your keeper's learning curve will ultimately take their game to the next level, and when you get there you will breathe easier for sure. Hang in there.
 
First of all, I have to say that I love this GK forum. Everyone has been super constructive and kind. You are all GK parents, so no surprise. :)

Having a heart attack about this kind of play is normal. Especially at your keepers age. I would say about two years ago is when that style of play became more and more common or expected from my keeper (U 13/14). She is an 03. I was a train wreck watching it at the beginning, and there were definitely mistakes made, especially related to her confidence. Not anticipating that another player saw what she was thinking about doing, and could come in and score. And then that would make her more nervous about doing it again. She is so much more comfortable now. And there is still plenty of room for improvement. I think confidence and decision making are key factors in improving their abilities. Now she plays pretty well with her feet and has a good ability to know when to do an underhand throw or an overhand throw, etc. Her last game in National Cup, I was blown away by her confidence and decision making improvements. She made plays in her last game of the season that she could have/would have never made in Sept. Even her coach has said so. I know it's hard and wish you and your keeper the best. This is where your keeper's learning curve will ultimately take their game to the next level, and when you get there you will breathe easier for sure. Hang in there.
I totally agree with you about this GK forum. I love it and all of the opinions. I also want you to know I read your post to my 06 Daughter because I alone have no credibility with her and what you said is exactly what I have been telling her. Unfortunately the last team she was on didn't teach play out of the back at all which is one of the reasons we left the team. I would have been doing her a disservice leaving her on that team. I was looking for a club/team that would provide the most amount of overall goalkeeping training (foot skills, shot stopping, strategy etc., and a great team tone) knowing that I would have to supplement too. Having said that, she is now playing up and I am the one trying to encourage her to try to play out of the back. She won't try anything until she is confident doing it or the coach tells her to do it and I am working with her to get her confident doing it. Her team mates have to get used to it and have confidence in her doing it too. She is the one that needs to be confident first. They do it in practice on small sided fields but don't seem to be prepared to do it in games. I am getting ready to offer her $$$ for every time she plays out of the back or calls for the ball. LOL I know it will take time both because it is a new team AND she is playing up but patience is not a virtue for me. Your post was also great because it said mistakes will be made but to keep forging forward. That was super helpful for my daughter to read. Thanks again!
 
My 05 Keeper Son is entering his 3rd season of heavy possession style soccer. He trains 2 days a week with the team, participating in field player drills. It has been great for his footwork. He goes to Goalie training once a week. I support the philosophy and feel like i'm getting my moneys worth of Development. But more often than not, IT"S SUPER SKETCHY. My family and fellow parents are having heart attacks as the outside defender sends the ball back across the middle to the keeper for the 3rd time in the sequence.

What are your thoughts for this type of play for your keeper?
Do you freak out too?
Do you see more or less of this with the Olders (High School)?

I have a B03 (U15), who played with B02 last year and now is on a Flight 1 - B01 (U17) team (2 years up) [/end bragging]. At the 05 level (U13) you will see a lot of weak/shaky passes from the outside defenders. Depending on the level of team, these defenders may also be the weaker players (that was the case on his U13 team a few years ago).

What are your thoughts for this type of play for your keeper?
This is how real/possession soccer is played at the higher levels.

Do you freak out too?
Only when the passes don't have enough speed to clear the danger or are bouncing back to the keeper due to poor technique or fields. I actually freak out when the defenders choose to clear the ball by booting it blindly or don't use the keeper to keep possession.

Do you see more or less of this with the Olders (High School)?
At the older levels (HS Varsity) and U16+, the players on the field now have all the "skills" needed to keep possession and are really starting to get a bit more creative. You will see more and more of this as the team gets older. Occasionally, you will see defenders that have lost faith or never had it in the GK that simply doesn't have the foot skills (we ignore this as the exception). The goal is to retain possession and find the weakness/gaps. Playing out of the back and back to the GK is critical to sound possession soccer.
 
What are your thoughts for this type of play for your keeper?
This is how real/possession soccer is played at the higher levels.

.

I think you have to qualify by what you mean "higher levels". o_O I took my son to the Galaxy v. Quakes game and he was (with fresh eyes now...not his first MLS game) complaining about how often Bingham was punting or long goalkicking it and then immediately turning it over. Bingham must have gotten maybe 6 or 7 backpasses all night. Tarbell even fewer. By contrast, he noticed the USWNT game we went to, the keeper usually passed it to the backs and was constantly going back and forth, switching the field, looking for the opening. Don't think the Quakes or the Galaxy qualify as "higher level" under your test. :D
 
I think you have to qualify by what you mean "higher levels". o_O I took my son to the Galaxy v. Quakes game and he was (with fresh eyes now...not his first MLS game) complaining about how often Bingham was punting or long goalkicking it and then immediately turning it over. Bingham must have gotten maybe 6 or 7 backpasses all night. Tarbell even fewer. By contrast, he noticed the USWNT game we went to, the keeper usually passed it to the backs and was constantly going back and forth, switching the field, looking for the opening. Don't think the Quakes or the Galaxy qualify as "higher level" under your test. :D

Possession soccer does at least require the team attempting to possess have greater athletic skills than their opponents AND you take what they give you. If the defenders had positive outlets, then go forward rather than negative. But, sometimes, the skills are not there ... even at the National Team level and you wind up with something like this:

https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2018/05/28/goal-josh-sargent-picks-keeper-scores-his-first-usmnt
 
Possession in itself serves no purpose. This game is about scoring goals. You ask any world class defender and he will tell you that first thing to look for is that open striker up top, and only after that for other options. Passing the ball to goalkeeper always the last option. Keeping the ball in the back serves the purpose of drawing the other team in so ball can be played quickly forward.
Goalkeeper who can distribute the ball (punting, kick, throwing) accurately 50-60 yards is the future of goalkeeping. That's why Pep is having so much success after getting Ederson Moraes. Playing with feet doesn't mean much unless ball distribution is accurate.
 
Goalkeeper who can distribute the ball (punting, kick, throwing) accurately 50-60 yards is the future of goalkeeping. .


If true, the US is major trouble. Neither Bingham nor Tarbell could distribute the ball to an open person more than a 1/3 of the time...most of the time it was into a 50/50 situation because if the other side is doing its job, anyone not in an offside position near the mid is covered...the hang time in the air also gives the defender plenty of time to get there. And I don't think it's Bingham's technique with the punt....if anything that's the one thing he can really do well (having scored off the punt in the past). It was the story again and again...they'd punt it....the receiver would either lose in a 50/50 situation or be unable to turn with it, ball turned over. If there was blame to be handed out then (other than the choice to punt), I would have to hand it to the receivers for their failure to get the ball or to retain possession once it had been punted/long goalkicked.

Plus now kids are only beginning to learn the punt at age 10 due to buildout line prohibitions (and even then on tiny fields) and learning to punt accurately AND with power takes a lot of time.
 
Possession in itself serves no purpose. This game is about scoring goals. You ask any world class defender and he will tell you that first thing to look for is that open striker up top, and only after that for other options. Passing the ball to goalkeeper always the last option. Keeping the ball in the back serves the purpose of drawing the other team in so ball can be played quickly forward.
Goalkeeper who can distribute the ball (punting, kick, throwing) accurately 50-60 yards is the future of goalkeeping. That's why Pep is having so much success after getting Ederson Moraes. Playing with feet doesn't mean much unless ball distribution is accurate.
Not to be overly obvious, but isn't the best scenario to have players that can do both? Yes, at the professional level if you can score a goal quickly with one pass/punt/kick, then why wouldn't you? The thing is, playing direct doesn't take much training, so if you can play possession soccer, you can also play direct. But it does not go the other way. So it IS valuable to teach young players possession, playing out of the back, back to the keeper, etc. Saying possession does not serve a purpose is incorrect. The best way to prevent the other team from scoring to possess the ball. Not to mention the secondary tactic of wearing out the opposition as they give chase. I've seen good possession teams in youth soccer wear out overly aggressive direct teams in the first half by being patient and playing the ball out of the back repeatedly, be tied at half, and then proceed to smoke them in the second half. Point being, if scoring goals and winning games is all we care about in youth sports, then have at it, but don't be disappointed when our national team full of kick and run track stars gets taken to the woodshed by diminutive teams that pass circles around us.

To the point of the OP, you have to sacrifice some wins and some soft goals conceded if you're going to train youngsters to be able to play this style as well as long ball.
 
This is a great thread. As a GK parent, this discussion is a microcosm of youth soccer as a whole, and when it's appropriate to shift from a "development" to a "winning" philosophy. If you are a U10 dad who knows or suspects that their kid will be moving on from soccer at U12, then they have no interest in "development". Passing backwards, giving up easy goals, losing games, is not what they want. Parents who know that their kid has a passion for the game wants them to develop skills that are essential at the next level - winning is not so important at the young ages. For a GK parent, this is an especially important question. There are only a handful of clubs that insist on this development at every age group - find them!
 
This is a great thread. As a GK parent, this discussion is a microcosm of youth soccer as a whole, and when it's appropriate to shift from a "development" to a "winning" philosophy. If you are a U10 dad who knows or suspects that their kid will be moving on from soccer at U12, then they have no interest in "development". Passing backwards, giving up easy goals, losing games, is not what they want. Parents who know that their kid has a passion for the game wants them to develop skills that are essential at the next level - winning is not so important at the young ages. For a GK parent, this is an especially important question. There are only a handful of clubs that insist on this development at every age group - find them!


One of the practical problems with doing this with the younger age groups is that you need to have a dedicated keeper(s) (and dedicated backs would be helpful too). If you are just playing with a field player substituting in as shot stopper well then it's going to be hard because the keepers won't have practiced the back pass with the defensive squad (and it takes a bit for most keepers to overcome to the fear to ask for the back, let alone experience the array of mistakes that can happen). Not saying it's not possible, but it's really hard since most kids aren't naturals at this type of play or have nerves of steel (remember too they are going to be nervous just being in goal)....the most you'd be able to get is a partial development from the back (playing the goalkick short to the defender who then always moves it upwards)....that's not really playing out the back since the ball is always headed in one direction (or sideways at best if the coach isn't afraid to cross the middle).

On the other hand, the NSCAA recommends that kids not specialize in goal until age 12. Again, not saying it isn't possible but having a dedicated keeper (and backs) helps smooth this type of play.
 
Not to be overly obvious, but isn't the best scenario to have players that can do both? Yes, at the professional level if you can score a goal quickly with one pass/punt/kick, then why wouldn't you? The thing is, playing direct doesn't take much training, so if you can play possession soccer, you can also play direct. But it does not go the other way. So it IS valuable to teach young players possession, playing out of the back, back to the keeper, etc. Saying possession does not serve a purpose is incorrect. The best way to prevent the other team from scoring to possess the ball. Not to mention the secondary tactic of wearing out the opposition as they give chase. I've seen good possession teams in youth soccer wear out overly aggressive direct teams in the first half by being patient and playing the ball out of the back repeatedly, be tied at half, and then proceed to smoke them in the second half. Point being, if scoring goals and winning games is all we care about in youth sports, then have at it, but don't be disappointed when our national team full of kick and run track stars gets taken to the woodshed by diminutive teams that pass circles around us.

To the point of the OP, you have to sacrifice some wins and some soft goals conceded if you're going to train youngsters to be able to play this style as well as long ball.

I was not talking about playing possession as a team or plying direct, I was talking about goalkeeper role in this.
 
Keep in mind that goal kicks (or any free kick that is taken inside the PA) are more constrained than other keeper distributions because the next touch by either team must be outside the PA.
 
Playing back to the keeper is the smart play. Better to have a defender play it back from almost any distance then turning into pressure. Plus combine that with the requirement of at least one forward on the other team needing to run to the keeper, both tiring them out in the long run and putting them offside, their really isn't a downside to playing back to the keeper. During practice her team plays back to her all the time. Still a learning process during games. Yes, my daughter has had to charge out and sometimes slide tackle a ball out of bounds because the kick back to them was too soft, good thing she is fast.
 
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