USWNT

Finally watched the France game. The problem I see is too many of the same type of player on the field. Morgan, Press, Dunn, Pugh, Fox, Sonnett, and Sauerbraun -- all speed and no skill. Pugh is a 9, Dunn a 9, Morgan a 9, Press a 9. None of those players can make an accurate pass. Once Davidson came in (she can pass), there was a bit more connecting on the left side. Part of it is circumstance I guess bc Lavelle, Rapinoe and Heath were on the bench, but I'm still not convinced that those players even have the skill that France plays with. Horan looked ok at times, but she too struggled to connect a pass. I think Mewis better. I agree with earlier post that Brian just hasn't been the same since her injury -- looks a step slow and her touch is off. Lloyd has hung on too long and shoulda made room for a younger player. And I really don't get all the hype re Pugh? She's all speed. No 1v1 game. Can't connect a pass. And she's small so not gonna get on any headers. Yes, she scored, but the focus/effort by France isn't the same at 3-0 in stoppage time.

This is what you get when you pick the fast players and think that you can train the skill into them over time. Doesn't work.
 
El Clasico said:
Agree, agree, agree...
I have said as much myself with the same pushback and here is what I have noticed about what the pushback has in common. They have no true understanding of the game. For most, their first experience with the game is when their own child began playing rec. For some, their kids suck but they know it all, for others, their kids are the best on the team so they MUST know it all and the lessors (parents) on the team listen to them. What they don't understand is the guy they are listening to whose kid is good is good, usually, through athleticism, not soccer IQ. When I say, we are falling behind, I don't mean that our women's team will lose in the first round of WWC (I actually expect them to win this year), what I am saying is that if we don't change, within 10 years, our women's team will be just like our men's team. Good but not great. I think it was Spain's coach that said it best when he said that we have millions of girls playing soccer in this country and only 42,000 (of all age groups) girls registered to play in Spain. Love when he said that we are in the same race and Spain is behind USA but Spain is running faster. Those countries you mention already know that they are making big leaps in their development and will soon pass us. That is why they now play with so much confidence against us. We have already lost the "Mike Tyson" advantage.
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I'm so glad someone finally has a "true understanding of the game".

You missed one type of parent. He's the one who played soccer growing up because other sports were out of reach due to his lack of strength and stature. In HS he was jealous of the more athletic basketball and football players who got all the attention, and now he's jealous of their more athletic children who overshadow his own daughter, and whom he claims lack his daughter's tremendous soccer IQ. He also regularly uses phrases like "pitch" and "the beautiful game", and occasionally even refers to soccer as "football" when he's not around the alpha dads who would make fun of him.

This parent is also nothing more than a front runner who deluded himself into thinking that he loved the Spanish MNT at its peak not because they were the best team in the world, but instead because they played with a "true understanding of the game". In fact, he's been referring to "tiki taka" as if it were a religion ever since 2010, rather than just one of many ways to win a soccer game depending on your personnel. He also fails to understand that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line - even when he sees Christen Press teach that valuable lesson to the entire Spanish WNT. His brain will explode if you tell him Leicester won the Premier League with the least possession in the entire league, that the two teams with the highest percentage of possession in the last WC didn't make it out of the group stage, and that the last WC winner had less than 50% possession.

I think I understand why USSF is so hostile to HS soccer. It has nothing to do with maximizing player development. Rather, all these male soccer people were so emasculated and humiliated in HS trying to be athletes that they're trying to keep the next generation from suffering the same fate. It's ok, guys, people don't look at soccer like it's badminton anymore.
 
End of the Line said:
I'm so glad someone finally has a "true understanding of the game".

You missed one type of parent. He's the one who played soccer growing up because other sports were out of reach due to his lack of strength and stature. In HS he was jealous of the more athletic basketball and football players who got all the attention, and now he's jealous of their more athletic children who overshadow his own daughter, and whom he claims lack his daughter's tremendous soccer IQ. He also regularly uses phrases like "pitch" and "the beautiful game", and occasionally even refers to soccer as "football" when he's not around the alpha dads who would make fun of him.

This parent is also nothing more than a front runner who deluded himself into thinking that he loved the Spanish MNT at its peak not because they were the best team in the world, but instead because they played with a "true understanding of the game". In fact, he's been referring to "tiki taka" as if it were a religion ever since 2010, rather than just one of many ways to win a soccer game depending on your personnel. He also fails to understand that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line - even when he sees Christen Press teach that valuable lesson to the entire Spanish WNT. His brain will explode if you tell him Leicester won the Premier League with the least possession in the entire league, that the two teams with the highest percentage of possession in the last WC didn't make it out of the group stage, and that the last WC winner had less than 50% possession.

I think I understand why USSF is so hostile to HS soccer. It has nothing to do with maximizing player development. Rather, all these male soccer people were so emasculated and humiliated in HS trying to be athletes that they're trying to keep the next generation from suffering the same fate. It's ok, guys, people don't look at soccer like it's badminton anymore.
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We don't agree on much, but I do agree with your 2nd paragraph. All the high school jibberish, I don't understand. Where I grew up, there is no such thing as high school sports. However, I have four kids here, three went through it and one still in it and I still don't understand your point. Is it suppose to be an insult to me or your experience in high school?
 
End of the Line said:
I'm so glad someone finally has a "true understanding of the game".

You missed one type of parent. He's the one who played soccer growing up because other sports were out of reach due to his lack of strength and stature. In HS he was jealous of the more athletic basketball and football players who got all the attention, and now he's jealous of their more athletic children who overshadow his own daughter, and whom he claims lack his daughter's tremendous soccer IQ. He also regularly uses phrases like "pitch" and "the beautiful game", and occasionally even refers to soccer as "football" when he's not around the alpha dads who would make fun of him.

This parent is also nothing more than a front runner who deluded himself into thinking that he loved the Spanish MNT at its peak not because they were the best team in the world, but instead because they played with a "true understanding of the game". In fact, he's been referring to "tiki taka" as if it were a religion ever since 2010, rather than just one of many ways to win a soccer game depending on your personnel. He also fails to understand that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line - even when he sees Christen Press teach that valuable lesson to the entire Spanish WNT. His brain will explode if you tell him Leicester won the Premier League with the least possession in the entire league, that the two teams with the highest percentage of possession in the last WC didn't make it out of the group stage, and that the last WC winner had less than 50% possession.

I think I understand why USSF is so hostile to HS soccer. It has nothing to do with maximizing player development. Rather, all these male soccer people were so emasculated and humiliated in HS trying to be athletes that they're trying to keep the next generation from suffering the same fate. It's ok, guys, people don't look at soccer like it's badminton anymore.
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EOL in your defense of direct style of play you make the brilliant observation that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line"...I thought to myself, whoa you have some real genius type insight into soccer...however, despite your exceptional intellectual mastery of geometry and its application to soccer, most teams in the world cup with low possession lose though not as badly as in the past...

skysports-graphic-data-world-cup_4351874.jpg


You also cited one example of the success of direct style in the Premier League to make a gross generalization...but the data totally destroy your argument. On average, teams with low possession do poorly but less so than in the past...

skysports-premier-league-possession_4351871.jpg
 
soccerobserver said:
EOL in your defense of direct style of play you make the brilliant observation that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line"...I thought to myself, whoa you have some real genius type insight into soccer...however, despite your exceptional intellectual mastery of geometry and its application to soccer, most teams in the world cup with low possession lose though not as badly as in the past...

skysports-graphic-data-world-cup_4351874.jpg


You also cited one example of the success of direct style in the Premier League to make a gross generalization...but the data totally destroy your argument. On average, teams with low possession do poorly but less so than in the past...

skysports-premier-league-possession_4351871.jpg
Click to expand...

How do you define "possession"? When the ball is out of play and the clock is running, which team gets credit for the possession?
 
soccerobserver said:
EOL in your defense of direct style of play you make the brilliant observation that "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line"...I thought to myself, whoa you have some real genius type insight into soccer...however, despite your exceptional intellectual mastery of geometry and its application to soccer, most teams in the world cup with low possession lose though not as badly as in the past...

skysports-graphic-data-world-cup_4351874.jpg


You also cited one example of the success of direct style in the Premier League to make a gross generalization...but the data totally destroy your argument. On average, teams with low possession do poorly but less so than in the past...

skysports-premier-league-possession_4351871.jpg
Click to expand...

Next time you should disclose that you stole these charts from an article about the declining importance of possession. More importantly, let me explain something to you about stats since you're in over your head. All you have done is an admirable job identifying how an average team will probably fare against another average team on a perfectly average day. But if you're trying to figure out how to be a great soccer team that can beat other great soccer teams, you should read the article, because building a team to beat 51% of teams isn't what we're talking about, and the real data "totally destroys your argument". Notably, the 3 teams in the last WC with the most possession flamed out and #4 was lucky to make it even to the final 8. Seriously, dude, France had 39% possession against Croatia in last year's final and it wasn't exactly a close game. Russia beat your Spanish amigos with only 21% possession. Shoot, in the most lob-sided WC game ever played, Brazil had 51% possession but lost to Germany 7-1 in 2014. It's like you still think the best way to win in the NBA is to bang around in the paint. Wilt Chamberlain is dead and Iniesta may as well be.

But like most soccer people, you're also ignoring that the men's game is not the same as the women'. The truth is the women's side is slower despite playing on the same size field, which means that differences in athleticism will always play a more important role than on the men's side, and technical ability relatively less. In other words, the Spanish women's team playing tiki taka is cute but even less likely to be effective than it is even now on the men's side, which is not very much. Maybe the Spanish WNT will some day find great athletes instead of the middling group of circus jugglers who currently constitute their squad but, given their historical lack of success in women's track, I'm thinking Spain is already pretty close to its ceiling right now. (NOTE - this is where you get angry because you can't handle hyperbole and point out Spain's U17s beat down on the US U17s so I can explain yet again why that doesn't mean anything).
 
El Clasico said:
We don't agree on much, but I do agree with your 2nd paragraph. All the high school jibberish, I don't understand. Where I grew up, there is no such thing as high school sports. However, I have four kids here, three went through it and one still in it and I still don't understand your point. Is it suppose to be an insult to me or your experience in high school?
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Of course I was trying to insult you. You make a fun target when you mock people who claim they know everything because you know everything. If you'd like me to make a caricature out of the "I have superior knowledge because I'm a foreigner" soccer dad instead, I'm happy to oblige since I have plenty of experience with them too. I do worry about the direction that will go, however, since it will inevitably draw @Sheriff Joe's attention and nobody wants that.
 
All this rain...Finally watched the USWNT v. Spain game. Much better effort from the US side than vs. France because they had proper players in place -- Rapinoe and Heath on the wings primarily as Lavelle was nonexistant in the game in the middle. Also better effort from US because Spain not as strong as France (France 3:1 to win WWC, Spain 20:1 (same as Canada)). BUT, Spain controlled the game. AND, if Spain got better, more aggressive, play from their wingers, they could have won/draw. Each time their players moved the ball beautifully through midfield out to the forwards, their wingers "chickened out" and chose to conservatively pass the ball back to the middle (usually losing it) rather than attacking US's outside backs 1v1. Maybe they don't have that 1v1 skill in their skillset? Maybe it was just a confidence thing? I dunno, but if Spain finds just one player who can attack successfully they will get more opportunities on goal, and chances are 1 or 2 will go in. The Spain u17 had a couple wingers who attacked successfully -- maybe they're not quite mature enough for the big girls team...yet.

A good goal by Press -- weak foot strike into the corner. But that's her game -- straight run using her speed. One-trick pony. As I've said above, she's a "9". Not a 7 nor an 11. But neither she (nor Morgan actually) nor the several other players who are converted 9s--Pugh, Dunn, etc. are good with their passing while back to goal. And so, US is left with relying upon set-piece scores or a goal from pure straight-run speed. I guess that's an improvement from Wambach headers, but I'd still prefer to see the team just try to connect the ball more like Spain (or France) does as Rapinoe and Heath DO have the 1v1 game to create chances. I just don't think the squad is capable of playing that way.

Bottom line - US needs 2-3 defenders (like Davidson), at least one midfielder and a striker who are better with their feet and more confident on the dribble. Then we will get threaded passes through the middle instead of hopeful balls over the top, subsequent 1-2 touch passes out to the wings, then 1v1 play with balls back into the middle or into the box for scoring chances. Not pointless possession but meaningful, attacking possession. There is a difference and that's why I don't pay much attention to the possession % stats. Watch the game, and if you know soccer, you know who's controlling the game. Watch a ManCity vs. Liverpool game -- both teams try to win the ball and keep the ball--that's possession.

Especially as home team, France is the favorite to win in my book. Fingers crossed that Canada can get out of Group, but it's a toughie (Netherlands, New Zealand, Cameroon). And good on US for playing two challenging opponents prior to WC. It will make them better.
 
For those who are following the gender discrimination issues, this morning the USWNT players filed their lawsuit against US Soccer...

From the NYT: "All 28 members of the world champion United States women’s national team filed a gender discrimination lawsuit against the United States Soccer Federation on Friday, a sudden and significant escalation of a long-running fight over pay equity and working conditions that comes only months before the team will begin defense of its Women’s World Cup title."

Here is the link: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/08/...scrimination.html?smid=tw-nytsports&smtyp=cur
 
It is hard to deny, based on the facts as presented, that US Soccer has treated the men and women differently when it comes to fields and travel. That is just plain wrong and stupid on the part of US Soccer. And good to see the MNT come out in support.

Those of us who support women's soccer, and are older than our kids, remember what it was like from 2003-2009 (without any professional women's league, nor federation support), and how fleeting support was for WPS was from the MLS and large donors in 2009-2012. While it was fun to watch WNT players playing on our local college fields and soccer parks in WPSL, it was not a career for any female player. The current structure for women was based, in part, on trying to provide stability to the professional women's game. It likely is not perfect, and needs work. I just hope they do not win this battle, only to lose the war (put the survival of the NWSL and professional women's soccer in the US at risk).

As an aside, less than 100 days out, and I have yet to see much marketing of the Women's World Cup on television. I watch Bundesliga, EPL, some MLS, and most national team games. Perhaps they are running commercials during reality TV shows, but from a soccer fan perspective, pretty pathetic.
 
Tea and Busquets said:
Possession stats aren't necessarily based on time with the ball. Depending on who's doing the measuring they're calculated using number of passes completed. https://slate.com/culture/2014/06/s...ory-of-the-games-most-controversial-stat.html
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Let me simplify -- it's total bullshit. You can get any number you want by redefining the parameters used to measure it. An example -- Blue GK saves a shot at his goal by grabbing the ball with both hands, presumably starting his team's current time of possession under any rational definition of it. He rolls the ball out to a teammate Blue #2 near the right touchline, and White #10 runs in and is able to deflect the ball with a slide tackle, but Blue #2 gets control of the ball anyway. Blue #2 taps the ball forward to Blue #4, but White #7 arrives quickly enough get in a 50-50 situation with Blue#4, the result of which is a ball over the touchline. The referee could not see which player last touched the ball before it went out, so he seeks advice from the AR on that side, who admits he did not have a clear view either. The referee decides to restart with a dropped ball, but notices Blue #4 is on the ground with an injury due to the collision with White #7. After calling in the medics and allowing substitute Blue #12 to enter for Blue #4, the dropped ball is touched by players from both teams, with the result that the ball is over the center line heading in the direction favored by Blue. Blue #11 takes a long distance shot at White's goal, which is headed by White defender attempting to clear the ball - but the ball is still headed for the far post. White GKis able to get his hands on the ball just enough to deflect it wide, but the ball strikes his teammate White #3 in the butt and bounces in for a Blue goal.

About 8 minutes have passed during the activities described above. How much possession time does Team Blue get?

BTW, I like the idea of counting relative numbers of completed passes, but I wouldn't call that "possession".
 
eastbaysoccer said:
Woman just sued US soccer. If they bring more sponsorship dollars they they should be paid more the men.
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It's not the direct sponsorship money, it's the World Cup money. Per the NYT: "One of the biggest differences in compensation is the multimillion-dollar bonuses the teams receive for participating in the World Cup, but those bonuses — a pool of $400 million for 32 men’s teams versus $30 million for 24 women’s teams — are determined by FIFA, world soccer’s governing body, not U.S. Soccer."
 
It’s relatively simple. Add up sponsorship $, gate receipts and TV revenue (this is the hard one) - subtract their annual salaries in which they are paid (the men are not) - and then give the the same % of the remainder as the men.

If it turns out to be more, great. If it turns out to be less, so be it, it’s equal to the men.
 
texanincali said:
It’s relatively simple. Add up sponsorship $, gate receipts and TV revenue (this is the hard one) - subtract their annual salaries in which they are paid (the men are not) - and then give the the same % of the remainder as the men.

If it turns out to be more, great. If it turns out to be less, so be it, it’s equal to the men.
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No. This argument ignores the very heart of the problem. The investment into women’s soccer hasn’t been nearly equivalent to that of men’s. Just pay these women who in the last couple years have generated more revenue with a fraction of the investment and income. Pay them equally and communicate that they are of the same value with the same long term market potential. Recognize that they are growing the sport in the US as much if not more than the men. Don’t you see your daughters play on the field with all the same heart and commitment that your sons do? Don’t you value watching your daughters as much as your sons? Don’t help hold up that ceiling that your daughter is trying to break with these old, tired arguments about boys teams being better and comparing revenue. Even the MNT gets it. That’s what is simple.
 
How did the women generate more revenue?
Didn’t US host the Copa 2 years ago and each host city generated a ton of economic revenue..
Both teams play with heart.
The US women clearly deserve more Benifits from thier proven victories, but the men’s game, everywhere, is the money maker.
 
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